6800 a Dud? ~ Follow up thread

[BB_One]

The follwoing was posted in our news, as i suspect it may raise concerns and lots of interests and feedback. I trust it would be appropriate to do so here in the graphics forum for consistency and topic related thread.
If you have been able to test your card and can confirm or deny this, it would be greatly appreciated by our readers, I am sure.

Make sure if you test that it's not your CPU doing the work, but really the GPU.


Rumours would have it that the VPU ( Video Processing Unit) of the nVidia 6800 AGP series of cards is defective. What's more it would appear that there is no fix for it. This issue is starting to pop it's head up, and has many customers fuming for being sold a product that frankly does not / cannot deliver functionality that the 6600 series delivers for example. I cannot confirm this situation, but head over here and see what people are saying. (This could also explain why in addition to lower manufacturing cost, functionality wize all 6800 Pci-e will be based on the nv41 chip, not the nv40)

Link

Link

Link

PS: I just hope that nVidia has not managed to destroy their credibility again, with a product that appeared to be a top of the line solution.

[glorfy]

People seem to be using the "Step into Liquid" trailer - which can be DL here (http://windowsmedia.com/9Series/DemoCenter/VideoQuality.asp?page=6&lookup=VideoQuality). I'm doing so now and will test the results.

*edit* The bigger file was corrupted, I'm trying the smaller one, which is also DLing nearly 5X quicker!

[Rukee]

That trailer plays like crap on my BFG 6800 GT. :(

*edit*.. and it plays fine on a FX5900XT machine.

[glorfy]

That trailer plays like crap on my BFG 6800 GT. :(

*edit*.. and it plays fine on a FX5900XT machine.
Does this mean we should RMA request? Hmmm......

[Rukee]

I dunno, this is the first flaw I`ve noticed with this BFG 6800 GT card, it runs at 415-1.15 no hick-ups or artifacts at all. :(

[Rukee]

*edit* The bigger file was corrupted, I'm trying the smaller one, which is also DLing nearly 5X quicker!
That was the file I dnld`d, i`ll try the smaller one too and give that one a go.

[glorfy]

Just trie both versions with my GT - they are absolutely stunning!

CPU usage was around 40%, so I assume this means things are working properly! Using 61.82 drivers and WMP10.

[Rukee]

The smaller file plays fine on the 6800 GT I have, so not sure what`s up with that large file demo. 61.76 drivers here.

[BB_One]

Just trie both versions with my GT - they are absolutely stunning!

CPU usage was around 40%, so I assume this means things are working properly! Using 61.82 drivers and WMP10.


Euhhh...why is 40% of your CPU power being solicited when the GPU is suppose to do the work? reading other threads all over the place and this CPU usage does seem to be all over the place from 20% to 100% so what's a right number I dunno, very weird this thingie.

[Rukee]

so what are we looking for and how does that dnld help say the GPUs are faulty???

[Shayd]

Hmm...Running the smaller one with no artifacts that I can see(detect) I use avg 22% cpu, and temps with 256mb 6800GT cooled with Danger Den water block raises the stable temp of 45c idle to 46c @ 435/1.16 (Detect optimal)

Awesome video work in that! :thumbs:

[BB_One]

so what are we looking for and how does that dnld help say the GPUs are faulty???

What to look for, here are some issues/clues that seems to be encountered/offered:


The issue seems to be isolated to wmvHD format for me. The Liquid clip hovers around 90-100% cpu utlzation all the time but doesn't drop/skip any frames. DVD playback (mpeg2) is definitely working correctly. Using PowerDVD 5 cpu utlization stays below 20% opposed to 40-50 % without HW (video) accelleration. DivX decoding only takes about 5-10% cpu time



Check your GPU core temperature. If divx movies are getting Hardware decoding, the temperature should rise while playing them. ~ many people see no temperature difference suggesting that there is no HW (GPU) accelaration

The following is also claims of nVidia recognition of a problem, or shall we say lack of a feature

"The GeForce 6800 models featured the 1st generation of PureVideo
technology which included support for MPEG2 h/w acceleration. While the
initial design goal was to also accelerate other video formats such as
WMV, testing showed that the 1st generation implementation still relied
on the CPU to assist with some of the processing.

As newer GPUs were introduced (GeForce 6600 models), NVIDIA was able to
implement additional enhancements to it's PureVideo technology to add
support for h/w acceleration of other video formats such as WMV."

The main issue as I see it, is one I don't have a freaken card to test myself so can only rely on others reported experience.

Secondly, I could be dead wrong but any hardware accelerated decoding being done by a VPU, should in no way eat away 40% of your CPU cycle, just does not make sense 5% say 10 % maybe, but 40%? crap the CPU is doing the work not the VPU.

Lastly for some people it is 40% and others 90% cpu cycle being eaten away, I can only suspect that for a given cpu which operates faster less cycles is required to perform the task, so slower cpu more cycle required, only logical explanation I can come up with frankly.

One thing for sure, there is some explaning by NVidia to be done and they ain't coming forward to quickly on this, and many many seem really upset, and this thing is growing on a daily basis.

Sure whished I had one of those "to test" only, putting me dimes to buy one right now...euhhh I dunno, well not until I understand what this is truly all about.

Ain't the computing world fun!

[BB_One]

Here is something else I found:


Here is the official response from NVIDIA:

"The GeForce 6800 models featured the 1st generation of our programmable video technology which includes support for high-definition MPEG2 video decode and standard definition MPEG2 encode, as well as advanced post processing features such as motion adaptive deinterlacing, and inverse 3:2 pulldown.

The GeForce 6600 models have the same 1st generation programmable video technology support as the GeForce 6800 models. However, the GeForce 6600 models also include hardware acceleration for high-definition Windows Media Video (WMV) decode.

In order to utilize the programmable decode and advanced post processing features of the GeForce 6800 and 6600, end users need to download an updated ForceWare driver as well as the NVIDIA DVD decoder. Both the ForceWare driver and NVIDIA's DVD decoder will be available for download from NVIDIA.com by the end of November. For Windows Media Video decode on the GeForce 6600 models, end users will also need to download an update to Windows Media Player from Microsoft.

NVIDIA is also working with application vendors to take advantage of the programmable encode features of theGeForce 6800 and 6600. This feature just like programmable pixel shaders when they were first introduced, requires additional collaboration with application vendors. The first application that NVIDIA is targeting to support it's GPU encode capabilities is Windows Media Center Edition 2005."

[ThugsRook]

no ht
wxp pro sp1
wmp10
1080p file (liquid)
nv 66.81 drivers



BFG FX5900
http://users.adelphia.net/~d2rook/nVidia/liquid.gif


eVGA LE 6800U
http://users.adelphia.net/~d2rook/nVidia/liquid6800.gif



it doesnt work, but its not any more broken then a 5900.
both cards played it flawlessly.

:beer:

[BB_One]

Not sure why your CPU usage shows 0% while the graph shows otherwize, no matter.

I guess from your comment, that VPU acceleration is NOT working for High definition WMP files then?

No worst then an FX 5900 granted I guess, but to many they fell cheated specially when the writting on the BOX they bought states that this function is supported. Let alone having upgraded from FX5900 to get hopefully more.

Well I guess we have clarified what exactly is broken, now to each it's own how important that feature is I guess. My case I do not do mucho video stuff, so no big deal (well for now...down the road ..dunno),just darn poor from nVidia however I must admit.

Thank you for posting your results and testing it ThugsRook.

[ThugsRook]

it says 0% cause the file is finished.
the graph shows cpu usage during its entire playback.

sorry for not explaining that earlier.

:)

[BB_One]

it says 0% cause the file is finished.
the graph shows cpu usage during its entire playback.

sorry for not explaining that earlier.

:)


Duh....~! dummy me I could / should have figured that out..lol...sorry for the dumb question. :beat: :beat:

Last note on this I think, seems Nvidia UK has confirm this problem and also confirm that no softy or driver update can/will fix it, it's a hardware problem.

[Shayd]

The CPU usage is showing him starting the player and running till finish I believe. Much higher CPU usage then what I'm showing. Odd.

[BB_One]

You are on Intel Shayd, not sure about ThugsRook. However, lower CPU usage on Intel also confirm .

True reflection of cpu usage can be obtain by disabling hyperthreading. With HT people are seing 45% to 50 %, without 85% to 95%.

Some tests:


Test Rig 1:
Amd Athlon XP 2800+ System: 99% CPU Use on Step Into Liquid video
Dropped Frames like Crazy

Test Rig 2:
A) Dual 3 Ghz Xeon System (6 Ghz Total Power) HT Enabled: 20% per processor (Detects 4 processors in system information)
Smooth playback

B) Dual 3 Ghz Xeon System (6 Ghz Total Power) HT Disabled: 60% per processor (Detects 2 processors in the system information)
Smooth playback, a couple of dropped frames though.

Test Rig 3:
A)Pentium 4 3.4 Ghz HT Enabled: 45%-49% CPU use
Dropped frames occasionally.

B)Pentium 4 3.4 Ghz HT Disabled: 99% CPU use
Dropped frames occasionally.

[ThugsRook]

i tested with the rig in my sig.

any chance that SP2 is making this even worse for some ppl?

my results are "on par" with a 5900, but some ppl cant even play the file w/o dropping frames. thats pretty bad.


is this only a .WMV bug? or are there other formats that have probs too? (do we even care about wmv?)

:scratch:

[BB_One]

Right now it seems to be WMV related and like you many are asking do we even care, so you are not alone with such a comment.

I guess the issue is that most have concentrated testing with this WMV file, did see others make test with DVIX and Mpeg2 and what ever, but nothing conclusive frankly in terms of yes it works no it does not. Seen more it works fine then it does not work.

Right now I would say general concensus is WMV related only, but I am not 100% positive, and do not like to have loose ends so it's toying with me and I will follow this up very closely.

[malinois1]

Hey guys I test my rig in sig with the 9800pro I am at 65% cpu utilization. So I guess it is not only Nvidia with that problem.

[BB_One]

Honestly do not know what should be expected with an ATI product. Would be interesting to see what the outcome is with an X800 (pro or xt).

I guess for many it would seem the deception stands from the kind of false marketing blur given by nVidia in their point of view. Some are obviously really upset and comments range from never again nVidia to Class action lawsuit. I would venture to say that nVidia did not / does not need that kind of bad press and what does not help is The Inquirer and Anandtech are both on this case. Does seem like another black eye.

Anywho..anyone got an X800 and can do a test see what ATI's product can do or not do on this topic?

[Rukee]

The large files plays corrupted at 100% CPU usage on an a64 3500.
The smaller file plays fine at between 70-90%.

[Rukee]

my temp in the win display properties never moves from what it runs at idleing when the trailer is playing.

[BB_One]

Thank you for testing and the feedback Rukee, guess you also confirm that the HW accelaration does not work for u either on WMVHD files. :|

[BB_One]

New development: Seems nVidia did notice The Inquirer article and a PR person from nVidia responded.

Although it states the same as what I posted in an earlier message, it would seem that a driver update will fix it (contrary to other comments made). So I guess we will have to wait and see if this is PR or real actions.

Do note that the drivers are free but the other thingie the ndvd is not, and sells for $19.95.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19314

Anywho let's hope the new drivers put this one to rest...to be continued..~!

[BB_One]

Well people, my money is on this answer and frankly in my eyes the PR people of nVidia think their customers are stupid morrons, honestly nVidia just took a serious credibility drop with me !

Excerpt: NVIDIA won't be able to fix this problem with a driver update, obviously, since the problem is in NV40 silicon.

Link (http://www.techreport.com/onearticle.x/7535)

Anyhow, had not bought the 6800 GT yet, and with all this wasted time and hide and seek played by nVidia, well I guess it's worth it to peek at the ATI X800 XT now.

Frankly did not think Corporation's still acted like that!

[Jeff7181]

I dunno about you all, but I didn't spend $400 on my 6800GT to playback Windows Media HD video. At first that might sound like an nVidiot's response... but it's actually an "I don't care about a feature I never intended to use" response. :)

[BB_One]

True for you , and since I don't really do video stuff true for me also.

However, I do have a problem with "lack of ethics", let alone trying to PR your way out of a sticky situation, and semi-lying hoping people will not read between the lines. Just as important and that I trust is the main issue here, if a product is advertize to do something and I buy it, well it better do it or I get a refund.

So for you , or me ( did not buy one yet....dunno if I will base on Nvidia ethic), not a big issue. For others, well they bought (high price item to boot) something that ain't doing what they wanted and never will, but the less expensive product from the same family does do it! I can understand why they could/would get upset.

Here's one for laughther:

The Case of the Vanishing Feature (http://www.overclockers.com/tips00681/)


Lastly, when Corporations start screwing around with their customers and delivering sub-par products, you end up with comments similar to this one. ~ need I say more?


I'm boycotting EA until they prove they can produce quality products again.

[glorfy]

Thought I'd revisit this seeing as I'm now using two 6800 GT PCI-e cards. No change. It plays beautifly with no dropped frames, looks amazing.... but its using 50% CPU time! The GPU temperatures do not move from idle! This is using latest drivers, so IF Nvidia are going to fix it, I'm sure that they might do by the time it is obsolete!

[BB_One]

Now this is even more confusing given Glorfy's recent acquisition and obvious none working GPU acceleration for WMD, when u compare it to this "quite surprising" statement from Tech report in their BEST of 2004 run down !

http://techreport.com/etc/2005q1/bestof2004/index.x?pg=1


The only real chink in the 6800 GT's armor was the fact that the video processor didn't offer the promised WMV 9 decode acceleration in early revisions of the NV40—a flaw remedied in later production runs.

Remedied in later production run? euuhhh? say what? where? when? never heard of it being fixed!

Anyone got this working on a 6800 GT or Ultra?

This is very confusing, even more when talking to a nVidia rep his argument was that it does not work and was never promised for the 6800 serie, yes for the 6600.

What gives here?

Me going to shot an email to the Tech report and ask them to triple check this statement of theirs and maybe give us a manufacturing date stamp or something to refer to as a working card.

Anyhow, do any of you users out there have a working one?