just installed a 6 port baybus....

[ThugsRook]

oh this is nice, very nice :chit:

im idling right now with no case fans on :eek2:
sooooo quiet :yummy:

[eva2000]

why not a rheobus to lower the speed ? i have these 3.5" 4x 13W rheobus in my PC60 cases very handy to have :)

[ThugsRook]

12v, 7v, and off is all i need ~ im very happy :chit:

[eva2000]

i see :)

[ThugsRook]

ill post a few test results @ idle in few minutes.....

12v 7v off

[ThugsRook]

http://home.comcast.net/~d2rook/wc/3a.jpg

thats my case. right now it has 5 fans in it.
2x 120mm side panel | 1x 120mm blow hole | 1x 80mm front | 1x 80mm rear
(all Panaflo)

@ IDLE
all Off = MB 37*C / CPU 52*C / PWM 41*C
all 7v = MB 32*C / CPU 47*C / PWM 35*C
all 12v = MB 31*C / CPU 47*C / PWM 34.5*C

pretty neat huh?

:wave:

[eva2000]

very nice case :)

[eva2000]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
ill post a few test results @ idle in few minutes.....

12v 7v off sweet spot 7v then

[ThugsRook]

yea for idling 7v is plenty.
im sure i could even turn off a fan or 2 and still keep those temps too.

:-)

[eva2000]

can't seemt to see the baybus in that pic though ? hidden ?

[ThugsRook]

hehe ~ no thats an older pic, its not there.

i installed it in the top drive bay.

:-)

[eva2000]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
hehe ~ no thats an older pic, its not there.

i installed it in the top drive bay.

:-) oh i see :)

[ThugsRook]

this is fun ~ im running all sorts of different full load fan tests at a flick of a few switches.

i can see already that i dont need 5 fans, some do nothing, some raise temps :rolleyes:

:wave:

[eva2000]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
this fun ~ im running all sorts of different full load fan tests at a flick of a few switches.

i can see already that i dont need 5 fans, some do nothing, some raise temps :rolleyes:

:wave: yeah that's the great thing about these devices.. i found out my side intake on my Atlas 201S http://www.fileshosts.com/atlas201s/ raised my case temps so i took the whole fan out

[ThugsRook]

if it was lower ~ it would be useful ;)

[eva2000]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
if it was lower ~ it would be useful ;) you mean the fan placement on the side ?

[ThugsRook]

make another hole below that one and install it there.

[eva2000]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
make another hole below that one and install it there. might try that if i had a dremel or nibbler but i don't hehe

[ThugsRook]

youd need a hole cutter ~ its a drill bit, like for door knobs.
they make the best holes very easily.
screw the panel to some wood and drill away!

get an 88-90mm for a 92mm fan.

:wave:

[ThugsRook]

here's my baybus ~ 6 port dual voltage

http://www.frozencpu.com/images/products/detail_secondary/bus-11_4.jpg


link (http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/bus-11.html)

[RotorHead]

Very Nice!!

RH

[ThugsRook]

THX RH!

seems as tho 3 of my 5 fans are worthless :rolleyes:

i can hold the same loaded temps with only 2 fans~
120mm lower side panel and the 120mm blowhole do all the work.
the other 3 just make noise :mad:

good ~ i can sell them......

:wave:

[eva2000]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
THX RH!

seems as tho 3 of my 5 fans are worthless :rolleyes:

i can hold the same loaded temps with only 2 fans~
120mm lower side panel and the 120mm blowhole do all the work.
the other 3 just make noise :mad:

good ~ i can sell them......

:wave: i just save my fans for another pc :)

[ThugsRook]

what other PC? :scratch: ;)

[eva2000]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
what other PC? :scratch: ;) hehe i meant my other pcs not yours hehe

[Mikki]

Excellent test, Thugs...so once you got it all setup I'll bet the testing was easy, huh? Looks like fun...;):D

[ThugsRook]

oh yea very very easy :chit:

[RotorHead]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
THX RH!

seems as tho 3 of my 5 fans are worthless :rolleyes:

i can hold the same loaded temps with only 2 fans~
120mm lower side panel and the 120mm blowhole do all the work.
the other 3 just make noise :mad:

good ~ i can sell them......

:wave:

I've always been a proponent of good even air flow, same amount coming in as you have going out. Front and/or side in, back and/or top out.

RH

[ThugsRook]

RH ~ you can slim that down to "side in / top out" ;)

front fan was less then worthless and was actually the loudest fan in the case :smash:

rear fan didnt do much either but does help the moboard and PWM by 1*C.

[RotorHead]

Thugs, When you tested did you cover the fans that you had turned off?

RH

[ThugsRook]

funny you mention that....
i tested both ways.

the front you can seal up ~ -1*C with it sealed
the upper side panel should stay open (or filtered) ~ -2*C across the entire board with it open. a lighter shows its drawing air in.

:wave:

[RotorHead]

Originally posted by ThugsRook
RH ~ you can slim that down to "side in / top out" ;)

True, but I got a fan fetish! :wack: :blush:

I think if you had that configuration, "side in / top out" it would have to be at least 92mm. low noise 80s might not be effective unless you used 2 in each position.

RH

[ThugsRook]

screw 92s ~ if youre gonna bother installing fans get 120s.
(yes 92mm minimum)

:chit:

[ThugsRook]

just to give you an idea of how sensative these hot 3.4+ghz P4 systems are to heat ~ i ran some tests but kept my 3 case fans in 7v (idle) mode...

...i couldnt even finish 3dm2k1 :wack:

[Chuck232]

But uh... temps showed you were only ~1C away from 12V at 7V?

[ThugsRook]

that was at idle...

[DAPUNISHER]

Great info! :cool:

Couple questions:

1. Am I correct in presuming that the best fan config is particular to case design and size?

2. I use my front fan as a HDD cooler, are there any good resons not to?

Just as a comment some may find interesting, since installing the 5800Ultra the temps for my core, die, and RT1 have dropped 2c. It seems the FlowFX though noisy does effectively expel the bulk of the card's heat production out the back of the case.

[ThugsRook]

1) no. the fans that do the real work are the "added" lower side panel and blowhole fans. if you think about it, it makes total sense that lower side in / roof out would be better then front in rear out ~ heat wants to rise so youd be best off working with that. smaller cases could use slighty less cfm, larger cases would need slightly more.
1x lower side intake & 2x roof exaust would actually be better then just 1x intake 1x exaust (like im using).

2) as a hd cooler it would be effective. as a case cooler its useless.

HTH :)

[DAPUNISHER]

Thanx for the feedback Thugs :)

[Fossil]

Interesting observation Thugs. But doesn't the your side fan blow onto your PCI slots? Wouldn't the air reflected on your video card and causing a "Circle" affect blowing back on to your side panel? The only explanation I can see, is the bottom side fan is pressurizing the case and the top blow hole is forming a negative zone which wouldn't be much different than than two front fans and a rear fan and a power supply that has two exhaust fans. Obviously the baybus has disproved this theory for your particular case and fan setup. It is interesting to note that my case Lian-Li came with only 2 front fans and one rear fan. A year latter Lian-Li added a top fan to the case.

When you are at idle, are your power supply fans also lowered?

[ThugsRook]

yes the side fan blows onto the PCI slots.
i dont actually need the side panel fan, i only use it so the exaust fans dont pull dust thru every crack in the case.

the difference between using side in/top out & front in / rear out is the the side panel in is blowing directly where you want it and the top out is exausting where you want it.

front fans dont actually blow on anything~
rear fans dont exaust the hot air trapped in the top of your case~
rear fans also disturb your cpu HSF airflow~
same with a side panel fan blowing directly on your CPU HSF~

my PSU fans are controlled by the PSU heat sensor.

:-)

[Paragon]

I think we'd all profit by optimal fan placement and I don't think much testing is done by some of the manufacturers before releasing a case. I have found similar results to what Thugs has published.

I have a Lian Li PC-76 case with 4 - 80mm Aida Fans (all inlet in front) and 2 - 120mm Aida Fans (both outlet; one in the rear and one on top) plus an Enermax 550 watt PS with 2-92mm fans.

I'm running a 4 port Sunbeam Rheobus with the two 80's on the right side attached to one port, the other two 80's one the left side attached to another port, and each of the 120's attached to a separate port. I'm running an Alpha 8942 with a Panaflo 80mm U1A (46cfm) on a 2.8C.

I really wish I had gotten a 6 port bay bus so I could control each one seperately.

With a 4% OC (Intel Motherboard) I run all the fans, even gaming, at 7 volts and the mb temp never goes over 27 celcius,
the CPU at idle is always 4 degrees C higher than the MB and full load is 44C.

I've run as few as two inlet fans and one outlet fan at 7V and never seen the above temps very more than +2-3 degrees celcius.

Excellent work Thugs!:-) I smell a major review:cool: ;) :cool:

[ThugsRook]

major review?

i have the info ~ but i cant figure out how to explain whats best using the results as an example.

the best i can do is say "side in / top out"

think of the air going thru your case as if it was water~
its best to go in one side and out the other. (the top)
splitting it up (front and side in / rear and top out) disturbs the flow and makes things worse, not better.

all you really need is a 120mm low cfm blowhole ~ but dust will become a major problem if you dont use at least 1 intake to equalize the pressure.
the best location for that intake is low on the side panel.

:-)

[Paragon]

splitting it up (front and side in / rear and top out) disturbs the flow and makes things worse, not better.

Sure does!!! Many people don't realize that having two fans blowing at any angle approaching 90 degrees does nothing but create turbulence in the case, and the best cooling results are created from totally laminar flow.


think of the air going thru your case as if it was water~ In goes the good air and out goes the bad:p :p

[Fossil]

Well I studied air flows in some of the biggest Paint Shops around (Biggest was 800,000 CFM going in and 1,000,000 CFM exhaust capability) for 3 years and here are a couple of rules.

Air flow is completely different than water flow.

A perfect computer case would be similar to an air duct.

The flow through a duct is proportional to the force exerted on the surface of the duct. Meaning that if you measure the static pressure of a supply duct by drilling a hole and use a manometer or pressure gauge, the CFM through the duct can be calculated. You can also measure laminar air flow. To do this you must use a isokentic sampling technique and your sampling ports be atleast 4 times the diameter of the duct upstream from the source (fan) or 8 times the diameter downstream. Place the pipot tube in the centre of the duct and take the reading in fpm. Mutiply this number by .989 (factor for avg due to friction) and the cross sectional area of the duct to get CFM.

Also i have found the laminar air flow velocity across an area such as a paint spray booth (case) is greater with a negative pressure than a positive pressurize area (case). This is done by using an aenometer (sic) (looks like a fan on the end on a stick) and measuring a various heights in the booth or case. The best situation in a cross draft spray booth is to have top -100 fpm, middle100 fpm, bottom 100 fpm. If you have 130 top, 90 fpm middle and 80 fpm bottom, the overspray will circle back from the top of the booth to the lower part of the boot and then back across the booth on to your paint surface causing dirt. The CFM of the supply and the exhaust did not change but the overspray removal efficency was greatly lowered when the laminar air flow is not even.

So in your case Thugs, if you put a pipot tube about four inches below the top fan and a pressure gauge on the side of your computer, you would see a negative static pressure, high laminar air flow, (which increases heat removal efficency) and lower cpu temps with the front fans off.

With the front fans on, you would see positive pressure case, lower velocity laminar flow, same amount of top exhaust, and less efficent heat removal ( hot air is blown around the case back onto CPU fan and other parts).

Using a simple smoke test, my Lian- Li PC 65 is positive, 2 fans in front and one in the back. The new PC75 or 6089 or 65 has an extra fan in the top. With no obstructions (filters, intake holes) in the exhaust, I am positive the new Lian-Li cases are designed to be slightly negative so in theory a better case for heat removal efficency.

Sometimes more is not better.

[ThugsRook]

yep thats exactly what i came up with.

my next step is have 2x 120mm blowholes.
its more important to exaust hot air then it is to force in fresh air. forcing in fresh air will do nothing if the hot air is still in the case.

:-)

[Fossil]

Forget the tape. Dry Ice and Army issued smoke bombs work great. One time i was balancing an oven that was 1 mile long. I asked the maintenance guy if the fire system was off. Oh yeah they are off. With the cameras rolling, i set off 6 Army issued smoke grenades and 2 seconds later, $6000.00 water damage to the cameras.

Thugs, I been thinking. If you like the top fans, then raise the bottom of your computer and put the supply fans in the bottom panel. That would be best laminar air flow situation.

[ThugsRook]

that wouldnt be very easy to do.
again dust would become a problem too.
i think the pci and agp cards would still disturb the airflow enough to not make it much better anyways.
side panels are much easier to deal with ;)

i also recommend making a 92-120mm hole in the side panel directly over your cpu.
no fan tho, just an open port. my testing has shown that to be worth 2-3*C for the cpu.

:-)

[XV1100SH]

What about the 2-3 Fans that are in PSU,s now a days. Most ( not all ) PSU,s are installed in the top of the Case. My Enermax PSU will suck the air in and exhaust it out the back. Will that not help rid heat at the top of the Case?

[Fossil]

I can line up 120 mm fan on the bottom in a direct line with a 120 mm top fan. With a two inch box under the computer, there will be more then enough room for filter media. The media and the power supply fans will be enougth to cause the desire slightly negative affect. Can always reverse the back exhaust fan and run it at low across the cpu. Yes dust will be a slight issue but the goal is least amount of fans (noise) and maximum efficency of heat removal. Time to purchase a 120 mm hole saw.

[ThugsRook]

Can always reverse the back exhaust fan and run it at low across the cpu.
that is a very, very bad idea.

[Fossil]

I think in the begining Penicillin was a bad idea.

lol

I just read Paragons article. The only way to test the theory is to try it. Unfortunatly, i don't feel like turning my Lian-Li into swiss cheese. I need to find a cheap case. Those hole saws are real expensive.

[ThugsRook]

yep ~ those blu-mol 114mm bimetal bits are $25

making rear fans intakes raises temps a lot.

:-)

[ThugsRook]

i installed the 2nd 120mm blowhole today with a pair of Vantec Stealth fans....

now my exaust is so powerful that its pulling air IN from my PSU :rolleyes:
np ~ baffled the PSU and installed a pair of panaflo M fans in it :deviltail
(actually i should have done that long ago ~ PSU fans are poor quality anyways)

ill post my results if these 3 mods are worth anything over my previous config.

:wave:

[ThugsRook]

B E F O R E
* 1x panaflo 120mm blowhole fan
* stock enermax PSU fans

IDLE = CPU 45.5*C | NB 30*C | PWM 33.5*C
LOAD = CPU 59.5*C | NB 31*C | PWM 44.5*C


A F T E R
* 2x vantec 120mm blowhole fans
* 2x panaflo M1A PSU fans (on a 4pin molex)

IDLE = CPU 45*C | NB 29*C | PWM 32*C
LOAD = CPU 57.5*C | NB 30*C | PWM 40.5*C


:chit:

[Mikki]

Very nice results Thugs....:D

[ThugsRook]

thx Mikki :-)

i again reran all tests.....
intake fans are 100% worthless ~ they can only compliment exaust
fans. even then dont use more then 50% intake or it will disturb airflow.

the PSU mods were more effective then the twin blowholes too.

:wave:

[Mikki]

So, at this point, would you say that it would be more valuable to upgrade PSU fans than to increase blowhole exhaust? How important would you say the positioning of the PSU fans in relation to the cpu and mobo is? :)

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm very impressed with teh testing in this thread....;)

[ThugsRook]

im using an enermax PSU with the built in heat sensing dual fan controller....
it sucks big time.

you can reuse the stock fans if you wish but i didnt want to cut its leads so i replaced them with panaflos that i already had sitting around.
i ran the panaflo wires outside the PSU, crimped a 4pin molex on them and plugged them in.

the enermax has a big open grille on its front face. (inside the comp) this grille is a problem. my blowhole fans will literally overpower the PSU fans and pull outside air into the case :rolleyes: (i used a lighter to "see" the airflow)
using a piece of cardboard and some clear packing tape i blocked it off.
now the PSU fans can do their job exausting outside the case.

altho my testing was done after the fact ~ it looks like the PSU is worth more then the dual blowholes.


as a side test i played around with intake/exaust/blocking off certain positions to see their effects.

starting with only a single 120mm blowhole fan turned on....

lower side panel intake = -1*C
lower side panel exaust = +4*C
lower side panel blocked off = +2*C
lower side panel open no fan = -1*C

upper side panel intake = +5*C
upper side panel exaust = +2*C
upper side panel blocked off = +2*C
upper side panel open no fan = -3*C

front fan intake = +2*C
front fan exaust = does nothing but make noise
front fan blocked off = -2*C
front open no fan = does nothing

rear fan exaust = lowers PWM temp -1*C (thats all it does)
rear fan intake = +3*C
rear fan blocked off = +1*C
rear open no fan = +1*C

blowhole exaust = -5*C


the more i play around with stuff the more i learn....
exaust fans, properly positioned intake "ports", and sealing up open cracks are the key to an efficiant & cool case.
i recommend only a single side panel intake fan (even if only running 7v) to keep the dust out of your case.

IMHO: computer case designs need to be completely revamped.
the moboard and PSU should be kept seperate from the drives!
the PSU should not be directly above the CPU!
our current cases are very stupid.
computer cases should have "dual" compartments to seperate the hot items from the not hot items.

HTH :)

[Mikki]

Awesome results...:)

From what I've seen so far, I'd have to agree with your last statements. Case design is better than it was 10 years ago but it's got a long way to go before the design is 100% optimized....:)

[ThugsRook]

my current temps at idle (191fsb 1.6v IC7)

roomtemp = 76*F
http://home.comcast.net/~d2rook/ic7/whm191.gif

these idle temps are lower then my previous temps at stock speed/vcore!

[Mikki]

Saaaweeettt!!! :D:beer:

[Fossil]

Thugs:

I was just at the Lian-Li site and I see they have a new case that looks like it is designed for laminar air flow. I like the idea that you can move the front fan cage up to blow across the cpu and the little buggers have put a filter bracket in the bottom to act as a fresh air supply.

http://www.lian-li.com/index_1.htm

PC 6077...... that one day will be my new case.

[Croc]

Here is a couple of attachments of an earlier rig that I completely modded. 120MM inlet fan with an 80mm custom duct up front.
Dual 80mms in the upper back and an 80mm blow hole.
a 92mm Panasonic Panaflo "ramp fan' to help the air get up and to the upper vica card and cpu.

I built a bay bus and an internal fan bus connector 2 to switch 7/12.

After installing an Enermax 365 I smoke tested and shut off the blowhole.

I am toying with a blowhole in the current Lian-li PC60U I have. I just hole sawed an extra 800 for the back and O use a Vamtev Rheobus for fan control.

[Croc]

The insides showing the ramp fan.

[Croc]

Don't know why the first shoy es cropped.

Try this.

[ThugsRook]

very nice work Croc!