Direct Core Water Cooling Project *update 2-1-07 minor setback... i hope*

[Killer Munkey]

A work in progress.

First Phase was to get a new s939 processor in so i can test out my direct water cooling idea cheaply on my old core in my current system rather than build a whole new system to test it out on.

Done.

Second Phase was to try my hand at popping off the IHS (intergrated heat spreader) off of my 3000+ A64 winchester core cpu.

And in my best Stewie Griffen voice, "VICTORY IS MINE!"
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9776/phto0019ot9.th.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0019ot9.jpg)
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1372/phto0021gu9.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0021gu9.jpg)

So that was definitely a confidence builder. All the capacitors were untouched and the core is smaller than i expected so that makes phase 3 easier.


Phase 3 is to cut a 1/2'' ID plastic L joint with a hole at the elbow of it that will fit over the core. Phase 3 will happen later today pending whether or not I made plans with other people today and forgot about it lol.

I'll post pictures of the epoxied L joint on the A64 as soon as i get it done.

After that phase 4 is testing it out in my current system and hoping it doesn't leak all over it :hide:

[Snafu]

What's the purpose of the L-joint :scratch:

[Killer Munkey]

The end idea is to contain the water only the top of the cpu core. I tested the idea out on a AXP and it holds water, but didnt have a pump to test it out on to see if it holds up to the pressure of a water cooling system.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5205/axpdirectlywatercooledoh8.jpg

[boshuter]

Are you planning on epoxying the L joint directly to the core and allowing the water to just contact the core? Is the water still going to be circulating in a loop? I'm not clear on what you are trying.. we need more pics :D

It seems to me that unless you can get water to contact the entire surface of the core that it just may not be enough. Sealing will be critical ;)

Edit; never mind, you posted while I was typing :o

[sbinh]

Darn .. this board is 100 years old or something ... :D
Geez .. it's too risky to do it... But the idea is cool .... It just likes put water block on NB .....does it???

[NINaudio]

I can't wait to see your results on this KM. Have you considered trying a smooth bend elbow as opposed to a 90° one? Would help keep flow better. Then again, the extra turbulence provided by the 90° bend might help as well. Maybe try both ways and see which works better...

[Snafu]

Darn .. this board is 100 years old or something ... :D
Geez .. it's too risky to do it... But the idea is cool .... It just likes put water block on NB .....does it???
Now unless you want to donate to the cause I think it is better to do it on an old board/cpu just in case it goes kablooey :lol:

Now what is that you are using to seal it to the core :scratch:

One glue that might be worth looking at is teh urethane stuff. Holds better than epoxy (permanent) and it is not water soluble but I am not sure if it holds water as well as epoxy.

Definitely an interesting idea to give it a go :thumbs:

[BGP Spook]

Danger Will Robinson!

[Timber Jockey]

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/2725/uselessod8.gif (http://imageshack.us)

b****en Idea :bow:

[Killer Munkey]

I'm not sure which which method would be best to cool the processor, go for max flow rate or turbulant flow, but i'll go with the turbulant first and try to see the results.

I can run the pump w/o the motherboard on, just jump start the psu and power up my fan controller that has a 3 pin connector to run the pump, there for if it does leak, the mobo and g card aren't fried.


But more than likely i'll put on a stock A64 heatsink and loop my pump around to the old AXP board to see if that holds water so if it does leak, it leaks out on a old board thats not powered up.

If that seal holds up for 24 hours i'll test out the A64 that i'm gonna expoy today ( it needs 24-48 hours to cure any who).


The only downside to testing this out is that i cripple my main rig by using its pump and radiator. :(

But such sacrifices are needs to appease the cpu cooling gods:smash:

[joeMan]

I am glad you have revived this discussion KM. I had forgotten all about that you were working on this last year.
:bow: Awesome :bow:
As a matter of fact I think you'd have been a very deserving candidate for best '06 mod...except it's '07 and you're still working on it. So...best '06 mod in progress :thumbs: Super cool man. keep up the good work.

[Killer Munkey]

Thanks for the support joeMan :D , i'm honored that you'd even consider me on the same playing field with some of the extreme modders here on this forum.


Okay, i managed to get the AXP inline with my current system to test its water sealing abilities and its been going for over 5 hours with no leaks or dampness on the outside of it. :D

I'm gonna let the system run for at least 48 hours to see if the epoxy seal holds up for a while without any dampness. While thats running i'm gonna get my A64 setup near the same way.

Heres how i patched it into my current water cooler.
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9408/dscn0090rw3.th.jpg (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0090rw3.jpg)

Heres a pic of the same thing but with my crappy camera
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/541/phto0002qn3.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0002qn3.jpg)

Heres closer up view of the AXP inline. Sorry for the dark picture, my camera's flash whites out almost everything in a picture unless its 6 feet away, as one of the above pictures showed.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8155/phto0006nh1.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0006nh1.jpg)

[boshuter]

This is great :thumbs: I can't wait to see the results, I don't have a clue if it will be better than a regular block or not... the suspense is killing me..:yup:

[Snafu]

Definitely what bo said.

Waiting in anticipation!

[Killer Munkey]

Just an update, its been over 12 hours and the epoxy seal on the AXP is holding up just fine, no water or dampness yet.

I didn't get the A64 epoxied up yet so after i get that done, hopefully after classes today, it needs to cure then i'll swap it in to where the AXP is located.

Sorry to hold you guys in suspense, leak tests can't be rush otherwise computer parts go boom:smash: :smash: :chit:

[NINaudio]

Nice going so far KM. Very interested to see what kinda results you get too...

[joeMan]

Out-frickin-rageous man :rock:

[Killer Munkey]

Okay, the epoxy job on the A64 is done. Now it has to cure for 24-48 hours till i can swap it in to where the AXP is currently to test its seal.

Here are some images of it. Once again, please excuse the sorry state of the pictures, my cameras not the best.

The A64 and the L joint
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1528/phto0008px9.th.jpg (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0008px9.jpg)

A bad picture of the Cut L-joint next to the A64
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/1024/phto0010om3.th.jpg (http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0010om3.jpg)

And the finished product
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/2349/phto0012nx0.th.jpg (http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0012nx0.jpg)

[NINaudio]

KM, what camera do you have?

[Killer Munkey]

DXG 5.1 megapixel Model 568

[NINaudio]

I just looked up the specs real quick on that camera and you should be able to adjust the white balance down so that you can use the flash without washing everything out. You may also want to try out macro mode to see if that helps with the close ups as well...

Edit: white balance may also be called EV

[BGP Spook]

:beer: <-Coffee.

If you drink much coffee as I do, you will find that a steady hand is hard to maintain.

:beer: <-Coffee.

You may want to try supporting your hand in some way when you are taking pictures.

:beer: <-Coffee.
.
.
.
:beer: <-Coffee.

[NINaudio]

I hear you there BGP! :lol:

maybe a tripod will help... :hide:

[Killer Munkey]

Yeah... maybe i should cut back on the coffee hehe, my life soucre.


Well, come 5pm today it will have been 48 hours with the AXP in the system and leak free :)

With that, the epoxy on the A64 has cured for 24 hours and should be ready to test out.

I'll swap it in where the AXP is today and let it run for 24 hours to see if it holds up. I'll post a pic of it when its in place :D

[NINaudio]

Yeah... maybe i should cut back on the coffee hehe, my life soucre.


Well, come 5pm today it will have been 48 hours with the AXP in the system and leak free :)

With that, the epoxy on the A64 has cured for 24 hours and should be ready to test out.

I'll swap it in where the AXP is today and let it run for 24 hours to see if it holds up. I'll post a pic of it when its in place :D


I get a little bit whacky when my caffeine blood level is too low. :lol:
In fact, my family usually tries to avoid me most mornings until I've had my coffee...

I am looking forward to seeing your results for sure. Especially temperatures...

[Killer Munkey]

well as the thread title change suggests, the project suffered a what i'm calling a minor setback... the A64 leaked a steady stream of water even without any pressure on the water. :beat: :smash: :beat:

So at first i was bummed that the entire project would be scrapped for now because the epoxy job was supposed to be permenant. But as i was trying to pull of the tubing which was on there really good, this happened:
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8729/dscn0096jf1.th.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn0096jf1.jpg)
:bonk: :bonk:


The core and capacitors look intact so.... i'm just gonna epoxy it again :D :D :D :hide: but let it cure for 48 hours instead of 24.

I hope to re-epoxy the A64 tommorow (friday) so its ready to test monday.

btw, GO BEARS!

[Snafu]

Sorry to hear.

I have used epoxy for some repairs (non-computer) and it always gives away eventually. So never a huge fan of it. I would like to try this urethane glue I have used on other stuff. Talk about permanent stuff - geesh - don't get it on your fingers - and it aint water soluble.

[Killer Munkey]

urethane glue eh? i'll check out my local hardware store about it. Is it water proof?

If not i think maybe a hybrid of marine grade epoxy and urethane glue could do the trick if its as permanent as you say. I'd make one hellva seal.

[Snafu]

:lol:

They say it is water proof but I am not sure how good a seal it would make. If the surfaces are close then I can't see it being a problem.

Only get a small bottle (4-6oz). I am not sure how long it lasts once it is opened (cures with moisture).

[ol'norton]

100% Waterproof, it's used on car windsreens. It can be cut with a blade once it's cured.

[Killer Munkey]

I'll try out the urethane glue stuff tommorow then. I'll update again with a picture

[boshuter]

I agree with ol'norton... that urethane is the way to go for this project. Urethane is the only thing holding the windshields in most cars, the stuff is awesome, and you will have the ability to remove the setup, it won't be permanent like epoxy ;) I get mine at auto parts stores in tubes like caulk.

Not to knock epoxy, I'm a die hard epoxy user :thumb: The only downside to epoxy is the fact that it is permanent. The correct epoxy mixed and applied correctly is pretty hard to beat ;)

[Snafu]

I think we are talking about two different kinds of urethane glue here.

The stuff for windshields is removable.

The stuff I was talking about is permanent once cured. One brand name of it is Gorilla.

[Killer Munkey]

yeah i was gonna go try out that gorilla glue stuff first.

[Snafu]

Well that stuff is pretty much permanent (I am not sure how or if you can remove it). The other stuff sounds like it will seal and hold but still allow you to remove it when you want to change the tubing.

I think maybe use the gorilla stuff only as a last resort :scratch:

[boshuter]

I agree with Snafu.... I'd sure try the removable solution first. If this does work and the temps are quite a bit lower than using a regular water block, then you need to figure out some way to be able to move it from one cpu to another.

You could rig up something with a flat square base a little larger than the core with a hole the exact size of the core in it; it could seal to the cpu with a closed cell foam gasket that fits right up against the edges of the core. Some way would have to be designed to clamp it to the cpu, and you would have to play with angles to find the best flow against the core, etc., etc.,......

[Killer Munkey]

Hmm, you both bring up good ideas. A permanent glue would provide the best protection against leaks and accidental tampering.... but its permanent.

A removable seal would be nice and i'd like to try and design one. A couple questions i'll need to think about first though. Like if the seal is only there because of the clamping pressure, i.e. foam gasket around the core then say the L joint on top of that. If the pressure was released, even with the pump off the water would spill out in the PC unless the system is throughly drained first.

I'm up for trying any of these ideas, the only thing stopping me is the lack $$ to replace blown up hardware :lol:

So boshunter. How the auto part store uther. glue removable? Have to cut it or will enough pressure pull it off?

[Just Learnin']

The type of urethane sealant used for windshields is incredibly tough. I would try to achieve as close a contact with just the plastic of the elbow and seal around it with that. it can be cut with a razor blade if the need arises but it is close to what it would be like to slice the tread of a tire. :yup:

If it gets on your fingers it is hard to get it off without some sort of chemical as well. Keep paper towels handy.

The reason I say you should try to seal around it as opposed to getting any between the elbow and mating surface is twofold. Ease of removal if necessary as well as preventing any from getting inside the elbow and acting as an insulator. It has quite a long curing time as well so try not to disturb it while it sets.

If you tried to pull it off you would be disappointed I believe. The only concern I would have is that the plastic surface of the elbow may not offer a strong adhesion surface. Perhaps try a dab of it on a scrap piece of the elbow and see how easily it comes off. You may need to rough up the surface with some light sandpaper.

[boshuter]

So boshunter. How the auto part store uther. glue removable? Have to cut it or will enough pressure pull it off?

Like JL said, it's removable in the sense you can cut it, but it's going to leave residue behind.... I'm not aware of any chemicals that will remove it. I was only recommending urethane for replacing the epoxy you tried above; not for a seal between a removable device and the cpu. For that I would use a closed cell foam; and yes, it will leak when clamping pressure is removed... that is going to be a problem ;) You are attempting to make a closed sealed loop, but part of the loop has to be removable (the cpu), the system would have to be drained very carefully to swap cpu's.

I can see a LOT of reasons this will be very difficult to make 100% foolproof... I would go ahead with the setup you were working with, if the temps are good enough compared to a regular block, then you can work on a better design..... it may turn out to be a moot point ;)

[BGP Spook]

I think JL has the right idea.

Use the urethane glue around the outside.

Test it first, giving 10 to 24 hours to dry.

I have used some of the gorilla stuff to glue aluminum together.

It can be very strong if it has the time to dry.

---------------------------------

I think the reason for your leaking was an inadequate mating due to inconsistent surface contact.

Thats fancy speak for you had a hole. :lol:

[Killer Munkey]

i'm gonna use the gorilla glue stuff for now. If it ends up working ok and the temps are good, then i can justify buying another s939 processor to try and make a removable mod on.

[Killer Munkey]

A bit of bad news on the gorilla glue. I thought it'd only foam up when the surface had been dampened. But it still foamed up a bit even on a dry processor. The core is about half covered in glue foam. So basically half the core is insulated.

I'm still gonna go forward with the testing to see if temps are any different though, pending a water tightness test.

[BGP Spook]

Eeep!

Sorry to hear that KM. :(

[Killer Munkey]

hehe, i came up with a solution.

Gorilla glue's website said the only way to remove the stuff was to cut it off, chisel it off, or sand it off. Well it doesn't look like i hurt the core at all so a flat head screw driver must make a good chisel :)

The majority of the core is uncovered now. Testing will begin tommorow because today my bears are gonna win the super bowel!

[BGP Spook]

Hope you are right and it didn't damage the core.

Good luck tomorrow.

You will have to let me know how the bears fair tonight.

I won't be watching the super bowl tonight for the first time in a decaded.

I need the time to study. :(

[Just Learnin']

Your such a tease! :na:

[Shayd]

Hope there is better news about the core the the Bears :hide:

[Killer Munkey]

The glue job on the core should be cured by now, its been over 48 hours. So today after i'm out of my classes, I'll link it into the system the same way as the AXP and see if its seal holds up. I'll post a picture of it later today.

And i think the project will go fine unless the snapping of the cpu into my system gets fumbled by a certain quaterback.

[Killer Munkey]

AND IT LEAKED AGAIN:beat: :beat: :beat: :beat: :smash: :smash:

but a lot less this time:lol:

So considering the project is pretty much wrecked, i went ahead and dumped a crap load of glue around the L joint. I'll test out its seal again in 48 hours and if it still doesn't hold, well the processor is done for and after a pay check here at school i'll be looking to buy another cheap s939 processor to try it out again on.

Next time i'll stick with a bigger L joint and the same epoxy that worked on the AXP.
Btw, if anybody has a s939 processor and would like to sell it cheap to me for the project it'd be much appreciated.

[Snafu]

Sorry to hear it didn't hold. I've not had a problem with it but then again I have never tried it the way you are.

[NINaudio]

what about trying something like an aquarium silicone?

[Killer Munkey]

Aquarium silicone is water tight but i'm not sure it could be handled roughly and keep its seal. But then again it might. I'll give it some thought when I try this again.

[NINaudio]

It can take a decent amount of abuse. You might be able to find something more durable like a silicone caulk even.

[Just Learnin']

I would advise strongly against any silicone based sealants as the curing agents they incorporate attack metals. An extreme no-no where electronics are concerned.

[boshuter]

I would advise strongly against any silicone based sealants as the curing agents they incorporate attack metals. An extreme no-no where electronics are concerned.

I don't think silicone will hurt anything, when I was getting ready to try the dry ice tube harleybro asked me if I had ever tried silicone for a thermal compound instead of Ceramique :coocoo: It seems a lot of the guys running DI and LN2 use plain old white silicone caulk.

I would still try the automotive urethane ;)

[ol'norton]

If you use a silicon sealant, you have to find one with Non Acid on the tube. If it smells like acid, it will do the damage that acid does. The amount of rusty metal I've had to replace from people using silicone sealants to fix windsreen leaks. :bonk: Over here we have urethane made by Sika. It comes in various strenghts and drying times. I've glued a new sliding sunroof in with one type, and checked for leaks with a pressure washer 1/2 an hour later, before fitting the hoodlining.

[NINaudio]

I don't think silicone will hurt anything, when I was getting ready to try the dry ice tube harleybro asked me if I had ever tried silicone for a thermal compound instead of Ceramique :coocoo: It seems a lot of the guys running DI and LN2 use plain old white silicone caulk.

I would still try the automotive urethane ;)


there's many different kinds of silicone that can be used bo. In fact it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was some silicone in ceramique.

I hadn't thought about the curing agents JL, good catch!

[Killer Munkey]

Got some good news. It seems that after i got angry at the processor and dumped a crap load of gorilla glue it doesn't leak!:rock: :bonk:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4227/phto0015tm3.th.jpg (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0015tm3.jpg)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7627/phto0016ek2.th.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0016ek2.jpg)

couldn't get the close up on the base to focus, but i think i have the lighting and white balance figured out on my camera :D

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/9987/phto0017ty5.th.jpg (http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0017ty5.jpg)

So i'm gonna let it site with water in the tubes overnight. I have the tubes marked with a black marker at the water line so if it leaks I can see the level difference.

[Killer Munkey]

Hey snafu, any why i can edit the thread title after a week has passed?

[Just Learnin']

The Sika brands of urethane are the ones I am personally familiar with as well. the curing time is much longer here than it is in 47 degree celsius Australia though! :lol:

Over time silicone will attack copper and other metals. I have witnessed this with wiring, steel and aluminum. With wiring especially I believe partly due to current flow. Someone believed it would make a good water protectant seal from road salt and splash on exposed sensor terminals beneath the buses I work on. These connections corroded and rotted within the silicone in less time than if they were left exposed.

[ol'norton]

Quite the contary JL, urethane cures from moisture in the air, so you'd have the edge over us. The fastest curing ones have a spray-on accelerator.

[NINaudio]

The Sika brands of urethane are the ones I am personally familiar with as well. the curing time is much longer here than it is in 47 degree celsius Australia though! :lol:

Over time silicone will attack copper and other metals. I have witnessed this with wiring, steel and aluminum. With wiring especially I believe partly due to current flow. Someone believed it would make a good water protectant seal from road salt and splash on exposed sensor terminals beneath the buses I work on. These connections corroded and rotted within the silicone in less time than if they were left exposed.

They must have used whatever silicone they had lying around then. I'm sure that you can find ones that will protect electronics. If all comes down to what the formula for that particular silicone sealant is.

[BGP Spook]

They must have used whatever silicone they had lying around then. I'm sure that you can find ones that will protect electronics. If all comes down to what the formula for that particular silicone sealant is.

Ahh, the wonderful field of chemistry at work.

You would need find the MSDS of any product you are considering to be sure of its effects. :thumb:

[NINaudio]

not necessarily true. If it said electronics safe it'd probably be fine. :)

[Killer Munkey]

well the new glue job has held up so i'm gonna swap it into my current system to see if it holds its seal under pressure. I hope to get that done tomorrow but its hard to take down my only computer to try something new out on, especially when i got papers to type on it :D

I'll report back with pictures of it in the system.

[BeeHay]

nice stuff dude! :bow: :bow: :rock:

wonder how i missed this earlier? :scratch:

good shiza! :beer:

[Killer Munkey]

Its in the system! and isn't leaking yet.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8402/phto0023nd4.th.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phto0023nd4.jpg)

I took several close ups of the A64 in the water cooling loop but they all came out very blurry, so i'll see if i can figure out how to get that done better.

For the moment i'm going back to chicago for the weekend and I'm gonna leave my computer on all weekend to test out the A64's seal. I've bribed one of my roommates with a case of beer to check on it every hour or so to see if its leaking or not.

If its leak free when i get back on monday.... i'll finally drop it into the socket and give you guys the numbers you are looking for :thumb:

[joeMan]

Outstanding. Nice recovery KM. Looking forward to numbers. Woooohooo!!!

[Killer Munkey]

I need a little bit of troubleshooting help.

I got the processor in there and its leak free. BUT when i power up there is no beep code... and the PC worked perfectly before powered down and swapped the processor. Any ideas?

[Killer Munkey]

Projects toast.

The cpu was hard to guide into the socket and I thought i had it. But two pins got bent completely and that was the reason for the computer not booting.

So otherwise the idea holds water but the hefty tubing put to much pressure on the cpu in the socket making it hard not to bend a pin.

I'm not gonna scrap the idea for good but I need to think up a new mounting mechanism to take the stress of the cpu. I'd like some help with this if anybody has any ideas.

[boshuter]

Well that sucks :( Any chance on straightening the pins?


I sent you a pm :)

[NINaudio]

What bo said? I had a s939 cpu with a bent pin once. Had no problem straightening it out with a little pick. Worked without a problem after that.

[malinois1]

Same here. Back in the days of socket 478 I got a free computer that suposedly didn't work. Upon inspection all it had was a couple of bent pins. I straightened them all except one which broke. Luckily for me it was an unused pin.

I guess the moral of the story is give it a try, it can't hurt. :)

[Killer Munkey]

Ah, well the other part of the problem was that when i was attempting to pull the tubes off of the L-joint, the glue gave way and the L-joint ripped off of the processor yet again :lol:

So much for gorilla glue being the toughest on earth. For the next attempt gonna try a different method of keeping a water tight seal that Boshuter came up with.

[BGP Spook]

Sorry to hear it didn't work, KM.

Looking forward to what you have planed next.

[shimmishim]

update? :) just found this thread geez.. so slow...

if you need a "working" 939 processor let me know. i'll send you the one that semi-works (it should work at stock speeds) AND it's IHS-less :)

[Killer Munkey]

ah yes an update is needed.


Well i've gotten dead motherboards and cpus from several generous forum members and i just got a lot of plexiglass yesterday. So atm i'm gonna be designing the water block then i'll try to make that design with all the plexiglass. I'm gonna have to borrow a drill for this so this won't go as fast as the previous attempt did.

If i get this all working shim, i'll probably call ya up on that working s939 processor. :thumbs:

[Killer Munkey]

Well nothing new as of late. But i'm on my spring break starting next week. So that means i'll have a entire week of no classes or work to get things moving on this again.

[bf2nut]

2 words jb weld ,waterproof and indestructable