Sound Card: Eat your heart out Creative...

[BB_One]

For months now, I have been searching for a solution to be able to enjoy my rather pricey Home Theater system with my Audigy ZX. It made perfect sense to me to go coaxial/optical connector between the Audigy and the Home Theater system (S/PDIF out to S/PDIF in), until I realized one thing.

With any Creative Lab sound card (actually most sound cards on the market), if you connect your system with a coax or optical cable (S/PDIF), kiss surround sound good bye. Creative cannot do on the fly DTS (AC-3) encoding. Net results, when playing mp3 (which might be 5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1 encoded), games with 5.1 surroud or EAX 2-3-4 or the likes all you will get is stereo mode.
DVD with DTS encoded will on the other end play just fine.

Months of searching and sadly only one conclusion, sell the Home Theater system (it does not have 3 RCA inputs - only left and right - no center), and buy a Logitech 5500-e, and connect using the RCA cables ( 3 cables).

Not so fast say's Turtle Beach......we have a solution for you now !


Up until recently this lack of on the fly Dolby Digital encoding has been the norm amongst even the most high dollar soundcards. Enter the Montego DDL. The Montego DDL from Turtle Beach features real-time Dolby Digital encoding on the fly so that all your sound sources going to your 5.1/6.1/7.1 home theater systems with optical digital inputs will have surround.

http://techgage.com/review.php?id=3708

Got to hit the FS forum for there will be an Audigy ZX fairly new for sale, about time Creative got some serious competition maybe it will help improve their creativity, and driver development/quality.

This product appears to have a thing or two missing, but for MY needs, since I am not a recording artist, in fact no recording needs for me, playback is my main goal. Take a peek at the review and keep your eyes open for more I would hope, at roughly the same price or lower as an Audigy ZX ( $79.00) this could turn out to be the Audio card of 2005 in my view. :thumb:

Hopefully other reviewers will be able to test the on the fly encoding, but just as important the overall impact on the processor utilization, which sadly the review above does not even address.

PS: For the die hards - (let's leave Soundstrom out of this, it is chispset solution which sadly nVidia does not seem to want to bring back - no clue as to why they would take such a decision - seemed like a winner to most??).

[flexkill]

will it give us EAX as well!!!!:chit: :scratch:

[joeMan]

BB, I use the Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty 64MB version - and it is hooked up via optical to the 5500's. So, do you mean that no surround I am hearing is truly surround, like discrete 5.1 output to each channel?

[BB_One]

will it give us EAX as well!!!!:chit: :scratch:

It will give you EAX 2 over S/PDIF, but still surround over S/PDIF in BF2 for example, in the event you select EAX 4.

[DrPino]

pls correct me if i'm wrong, but AFAIK MP3 can only be encoded in stereo.....right?

[BB_One]

BB, I use the Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty 64MB version - and it is hooked up via optical to the 5500's. So, do you mean that no surround I am hearing is truly surround, like discrete 5.1 output to each channel?


Yip that is what I am saying and nope you surround is not game/true encode music surround.

Simple reason is as follows: I assume you have your Audigy setup to send to Optical out, as such that tells it to send output direct to optical channel WITHOUT manipulating it, and since the AUDIGY cannot encode in AC-3 format ( DTS or ProLogic) it sends raw digital audio format out (PCM), out it goes to the Logitech 5500 which sees it as a PCM format data stream. ( look at the 5500 display - if like mine it will tell you that)

Now PCM it is, but Logitech or JBL (such as mine) can take PCM digital stream and create '' Phantom'' 5.1, which is probably what you are hearing/getting - but PHANTOM it is - and obviously not the recorded format!

Creative Lab + S/PDIF out = At best Stereo output in PCM format, nothing more nothing less. NO creative lab cards have any DTS (AC-3) encoding chips or let alone buying a licence to encode DTS format. Look in their forum for such a comment you SHALL not find, but ASK the question directly - see what happens !

Look (search back threads) in this very forum and maybe a couple more and you shall see that I have been persuing this very issue for many months, not that it makes me an expert today - but I sure as heck understand why what ever is happening is happening now !

In my specific scenario Audigy is out, '' if and when I get'' feedback on the processor load of the encoding, and if I can live with the overhead of such.

But in short, to my knowledge there is today only one product that does DDL ( Direct Digital Live) encoding - and off course that being the product I am identifying to you today - hence in my boook the 2005 Audio Card winner - if not for sound quality (which I still have to test) - certainly for innovation and creativity!

Thou shall see, for on order it is !

[joeMan]

I am such a noob. I need to research these things deeper. I'm one of those whipper snappers that just assumes that the purest connection (optical) will of course yield the greatest result including all the bells and whistles (i.e. discrete x.1 channel output to brand x surround speakers). :beat: :beat: :beat:

[DrPino]

these might help joeMan:
http://us.creative.com/support/kb/article.asp?l=2&sid=5764
http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&message.id=12170

[BB_One]

pls correct me if i'm wrong, but AFAIK MP3 can only be encoded in stereo.....right?

Not 100 % sure on that one, I have read somehwere that mp3 could be 5.1, I believe, but will have to go back and dig that information again.

[DrPino]

after some investigating, mp3 can only be stereo...any multi-channel effects heard from an mp3 are post-processed...

[BB_One]

after some investigating, mp3 can only be stereo...any multi-channel effects heard from an mp3 are post-processed...

Dunno that I agree with your statement, unless I am reading this totally wrong.


MP3, the world’s most popular audio compression format, goes multi-channel. Scientists and engineers from the Fraunhofer Institute for Integrated Circuits IIS, who developed MP3 together with their colleagues from Thomson, the exclusive licensing representative for their MP3 patents, and Agere Systems, have joined to launch MP3 Surround into the consumer and commercial markets. This technology will enable 5.1 channel surround sound for a broad spectrum of applications including web-based music distribution, broadcasting systems, PC-related audiovisual or gaming applications, consumer electronics and automotive systems.


MP3 Surround supports high-quality multi-channel sound at bit rates comparable to those currently used to encode stereo MP3 material NOT post-process as you can see, encoded directly.

http://www.physorg.com/news2252.html

[DrPino]

brand new...wow...thanks for the info...

it's not exactly ubiquitous though as it has just been announced this month...and only a "trial" version encoder is available...


Which companies or products do already support MP3 Surround?
There are no products supporting MP3 Surround available yet. Any future software including Fraunhofer IIS MP3 Surround decoder libraries will support the playback of MP3 Surround files in full multi-channel sound.

also, from reading that article and the FAQ at the offical site it seems that MP3 surround files can only be generated from 6-channel WAV files...not exactly commonly found sources...

i'm not exactly sure if this is saying that MP3 Surround through S/PDIF can be multi-channel though (as it's still a compressed format that is "decoded" via software):

Can MP3 Surround streams be output through an S/PDIF connection?
Yes, in the same way as MP3 streams.

anyway, seems like "next-gen" stuff should make this technology more widely available and used...fun stuff...

[BB_One]

The encoder/software has been available since last year, December 7 2004 I trust. From vague memory I do recall seeing some mp3 surround sound music files, but honestly never thought of grabbing them and listening to it.


The point you make about MP3 surround over S/PDIF, I do agree with you there - does raise a question mark in my mind, as obviously no exsiting product today (Home Theater for example) have an embedded decoder for that format. So obvious question is, if the decodong is done by software on pc - does a sound card such as the Turtle here, then takes that stream and re-encodes it in AC-3? makes for a lot of cpu use I think.

Interesting puzzle, this one is??

[DrPino]

The encoder/software has been available since last year, December 7 2004 I trust. From vague memory I do recall seeing some mp3 surround sound music files, but honestly never thought of grabbing them and listening to it.whoops, my bad...i thought it said Dec. 7 2005 and not 2004 :beat: i also wonder why MP3 Surround isn't really common at all if the tech has been out for a year now...


The point you make about MP3 surround over S/PDIF, I do agree with you there - does raise a question mark in my mind, as obviously no exsiting product today (Home Theater for example) have an embedded decoder for that format. So obvious question is, if the decodong is done by software on pc - does a sound card such as the Turtle here, then takes that stream and re-encodes it in AC-3? makes for a lot of cpu use I think.

Interesting puzzle, this one is??
definitely an interesting aspect of PC/digital audio that isn't discussed very often (except maybe at audiophile forums)...

i guess the same decoding issue would apply to EAX 2,3,4 and other "compressed" mutli-channel audio streams with regard to the Turtle soundcard as well since these streams are decoded via an EAX-compatible sound card and not truly decoded by an external decoder...CPU usage has to be pretty high like you mentioned...thus diminishing, if not negating altogether, any positive aspects of said card...

[BB_One]

CPU usage has to be pretty high like you mentioned...thus diminishing, if not negating altogether, any positive aspects of said card...


Dual core to the rescue???:D

[DrPino]

Dual core to the rescue???:D
yes, please..how generous of you :mischeif:

edit: 100th post...woohoo!!! :o

[joeMan]

OFF TOPIC (technically): Steely Dan has issued some discrete surround recordings - like Gaucho I think is on audioDVD in 5.1 I want to check that out...I am listening along and all the sudden some chunky horn chops smack me in the back of the head from the rear channels...cool. Or, Donald Fagen's weird synth sounds suddenly enveloping me in surround...aaaaahhhhhhhhhh

Back on topic: Thanks for the links. That lead to more and more reading. Many, many people are very uninformed and/or informed but still confused about this stuff. More to come...need to keep reading.

I do have this to say (ask) though:

- As a safeguard would one be correct in stating that using the 3 mini-pin cable connection (green, black, orange jacks) inherent to most mid/high level audio cards and speaker setups, would allow them to then reproduce all of the various available audio encodings embedded in various sources. In other words, you could do just simple stereo through those cable, but also stereo x2, or if it comes - true discrete 5.1 output to each speaker as intended?

- In other words - assuming sources of the sound are set up correctly ( i.e. DVD player/DVD player software's audio output settings, or your game's audio output settings, and/or the sound card's audio output decoding settings, etc.), doesn't the the 5.1 (aka "6ch direct" - green, black, orange) cable allow you to reproduce any intended reproduction - whereas the optical or Coax are limiting in true intended reproduction?

Sorry for the run-on questions, but this is a multi faceted topic that requires involved questions of the like.

[DrPino]

there are definitely discrete multi-channel audio releases but only as SACD, DVD-A and maybe some other non-mainstream formats...i've got several Pink Floyd 5.1 DTS albums (upmixed by fans) that sound wonderful...regular AudioCDs cannot be encoded in anything but stereo...

the analog connections you mention do offer the correct multi-channel reproduction...and arguably don't cause any fidelity loss (see Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 speakers that don't even have a digital IN and rank at or near the top of multi-media speaker sets)...

[BB_One]

OFF TOPIC (technically):
- As a safeguard would one be correct in stating that using the 3 mini-pin cable connection (green, black, orange jacks) inherent to most mid/high level audio cards and speaker setups, would allow them to then reproduce all of the various available audio encodings embedded in various sources. In other words, you could do just simple stereo through those cable, but also stereo x2, or if it comes - true discrete 5.1 output to each speaker as intended?

- In other words - assuming sources of the sound are set up correctly ( i.e. DVD player/DVD player software's audio output settings, or your game's audio output settings, and/or the sound card's audio output decoding settings, etc.), doesn't the the 5.1 (aka "6ch direct" - green, black, orange) cable allow you to reproduce any intended reproduction -


Short answer yes, utilizing the 3 RCA cable will indeed provide for proper sound channel routing, irrelevent of encoding scheme or the media, as the Audigy is now the one controlling the speaker assignment ( feeding sound to the proper speaker - rear - left - center - etc). In such an arrangement, DTS THX and EAX decoding is now perform by The Audigy's built in decoders - not the Logitech or Home Theater system decoders.


whereas the optical or Coax are limiting in true intended reproduction?

Optical output will reproduce the sounds as per the media encoded scheme, hence utilize the built-in decoder of the Logitech - hence DTS for example or THX encoded video (DVD) will be reproduce with original surround sound, provided the Logitech or Home Theater has a built in DTS or THX decoder, the digital data stream is in a format called AC-3 which has speaker assignment channel embedded in the signal. For in the case of Optical/Coaxial output, Audigy passes the audio stream straight through without touching it or modifying it. , or embedding any channel assigment signal (speaker info - rear - left - right - etc). If the source of the music/sound (game or mp3 or ogg soud files) do not output in AC-3 format directly and since Augigy cannot encode in AC-3 format then the output will be seen as a regualr PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) data stream
incoming in the Logitech / Home Theater and intepreted as a Stereo format. Then comes various features of the Home Theater system or the likes, some can simulate Surround Sound - that is knowned as Phantom Surround.


Hope I am making sense with all of this and not creating additional confusion.

[RyderOCZ]

I think you are making perfect sense BB :D

In a nutshell....A coaxial or optical digital output is just that...direct from the source..no encoding..no processing...just passing the signal from the source to the destination.
So if the source is 2-channel...output is 2-channel...if source is 5.1 encoded and destination has equipment to decode that 5.1 info...then output is 5.1 :D

Sorry if I restated what was already obvious but that I think is simplest form?

[BB_One]

I think you are making perfect sense BB :D

In a nutshell....A coaxial or optical digital output is just that...direct from the source..no encoding..no processing...just passing the signal from the source to the destination.
So if the source is 2-channel...output is 2-channel...if source is 5.1 encoded and destination has equipment to decode that 5.1 info...then output is 5.1 :D

Sorry if I restated what was already obvious but that I think is simplest form?

Crap why did I spill my guts and luxated my fingers typing the previous post.:D

Well said and exactly that - :thumb:

[BB_One]

Lucky me - product is on back order...rats !