Dumb ass NOOB question? Need Help...

[Scott W]

Musician here, not a builder or a Pro OC gamer like you guys. I'm not looking to overclock. And am looking to have this built > (I do some gaming on the side. Second video card in future)

A8N32 SLI Deluxe NVIDIA
AMD 64 4000+ CLAWHAMMER
4 GB Geil Ultra DDR 400
MSI NVIDIA 7800GTX
Seagate Cheetah 36.7GB 10,000 RPM SCSI Ultra320 <Windows and Programs
2 x Seagate Cheetah 147GB 15,000 RPM SCSI Ultra320 Drives <For work


A. ^Does this check out with you guys? Or is there a BIG obvious mistake before I purchase this.


And B.



Can someone please tell me the best RAID card for these drives in thier opinion?

2 x Seagate Cheetah 147GB 15,000 RPM SCSI Ultra320 Drives


Thankyou very much in advance. :)

[BB_One]

WoW..back up for a minute what is the PRIME intended use of this system.....one thing for sure money seems to be no object ????

Do you already have the SCSI drives?

[Scott W]

No, I don't have the drives yet. I'm about to hit 'order' on Newegg. It's for a studio. Can you help me?

[BB_One]

Just in case I go to bed..here is my thoughts.

IF you MUST have those SCSI drives in the system, you are going after the wrong Motherboard.

Get yourself a mobo with a built in SCSI controller, it will perform just as good and be way cheaper.

IF you insist on the ASUS, the problem you will encounter is the SCSI Raid controller card, I have not seen one yet that operates on anything lower then pci-e x8 ( Intel, LSI among others), kind of normal as you would want the bandwith for your array.

Do not make the mistake of putting in a PCI SCSI Raid controller, you will totally kill your performance.

Now having a need for a pci-e x8 slot for the SCSI raid controller raises an interesting dilemna, since only a gfx slot can offer that today, even more so with the ASUS since it do not know how it will detect the SCSI card in a gfx position, will it work or not ? Dunno, remember those two slots x16 in this mobo are bios and driver controlled....can one be used for something other then gfx ...dunno?

On a DFI SLI I think I could make it work, I was looking into that a while back, but elected to drop SCSI all together and now go Sata 2.0 ( the real stuff).

Which frankly would be my recommendation. SCSI is pricey and in your scenario will be messy if you insist on pci-e.

At the very best go for a socket 940 Opteron and use a Workstation mobo with an integrated SCSI controller (they do have SLI versions). Look into Tyan or Iwill for example.

[BB_One]

Could help, but sadly late here time to hit the sack. And furthermore prior to making any firm recommendation I would need to understand what exactly you will do with this machine, just as important how you came about determining the configuration that you have identified above.

What you have up there is roughly an $6K to 8K US dollars PC when all will be said and done...is that your target price?
And for that kind of money I certainly encourage you to NOT to hit any order button to quickly!!

Leave details of what you are trying to accomplish, others might share ideas also, I for one will look at it when I wake up in 6 hours or so.

[Scott W]

I will wait. I need the fastest workstation for music creation out there. Yes, we are willing to spend $6,000 on a PC that can get the job done. We are swayed to AMD. If you had $6,000 and we're going to build the best box with that amount please tell me what you'd build. (And our Music progs are like gaming progs and don't really take advantage of dual core chips yet). That being said. What is the FASTEST Box you could come up with for $6,000 dollars from the ground up?


Thanks in advance.

[malinois1]

Hi Scott and :welcome: to the Bleedinedge :wave: I checked out your music in the other thread. Not bad although I am not into that kind of music anymore :thumb: . I like BB_one would recommend against the ScSI drives unless you go with a true workstation board. Having said that you could go with some SataII drives that would probabaly come damn close to SCSI performance for a lot less $$$'s . I can personally recommend the Hitaci SataII drives. They have an awesome performance exspecially when you consider the cost at $57 for an 80G drive :D . SCSI's on that board would probabaly turn into a setup...conflict nightmare.

How about 2 of these (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822145082) in Raid0 for the OS and programs. Then 1 or 2 or these (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822145087) for work storage space. Also with the $$ you save might as well go with a Dual core (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103546) processor :D . Good luck with whatever you decide.

[malinois1]

I will wait. I need the fastest workstation for music creation out there. Yes, we are willing to spend $6,000 on a PC that can get the job done. We are swayed to AMD. If you had $6,000 and we're going to build the best box with that amount please tell me what you'd build. (And our Music progs are like gaming progs and don't really take advantage of dual core chips yet). That being said. What is the FASTEST Box you could come up with for $6,000 dollars from the ground up?


Thanks in advance.

Hmmm $6000 :D . What kind of speakers and monitor do you want and is that Important to you? Do you want or need SLI? I understand that game do not take full advantage of Dual core yet but the new Nvidia drivers do boost dual core Frames per secont quite a bit so not quite true there. Plus with a dual core you can do music creation and game without taking a performance hit on either application :)

[Scott W]

Speakers/Monitors/RME Hammerfall Fire Face 800 soundcard is already owned.


I'm trying to find the best CPU buildout by itself for $6,000 from the ground up. . . No Monitor, soundcard, speakers etc... Just Box.


Thanks for taking the time.

[Scott W]

Hmmm $6000 :D . What kind of speakers and monitor do you want and is that Important to you? Do you want or need SLI? I understand that game do not take full advantage of Dual core yet but the new Nvidia drivers do boost dual core Frames per secont quite a bit so not quite true there. Plus with a dual core you can do music creation and game without taking a performance hit on either application :)


Jezzus... I did not realize you were a Moderator in here, sorry. Yes, I like games and would once in a while like to play them on my time off. I have no interest in internet at all with this system other than updates. Anything you can tell me would help.

[malinois1]

Case COOLER MASTER Stacker (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811119092) $159.00
Motherboard ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131568) $249.00
Video Cards eVGA Geforce 7800GTX (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814130248) $459 x 2 = $918
Power Supply PC Power & Cooling TURBO-COOL 850 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817703002) $499
CPU AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819103544) $$787.
Ram OCZ 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM Dual Channel Platinum System Memory (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820227210) $250 x 2= $500
HDD OS HITACHI Deskstar 7K80 80GB (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822145082) $56.46 x 2= $112.92
HDD Work HITACHI Deskstar T7K250 250GB (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822145087)$102.50 x 2= $205.00
DVD Rom LITE-ON Black IDE DVD-ROM Drive (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827131410) $22.99
DVD Burner http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827152047 $37.99

Grand Total $3,490.88

Still $2500 to buy me a couple of nice things :p :lol: And a BadA$$ system to boot

[malinois1]

Jezzus... I did not realize you were a Moderator in here, sorry. Yes, I like games and would once in a while like to play them on my time off. I have no interest in internet at all with this system other than updates. Anything you can tell me would help.

No problems. I still put on my pants the same way as you do...one leg at a time :lol: ;) I help out here alot that is the reason for mod status. BB_one helps alot as well as do many of our fine members :)

[Scott W]

No problems. I still put on my pants the same way as you do...one leg at a time :lol: ;) I help out here alot that is the reason for mod status. BB_one helps alot as well as do many of our fine members :)



PM me your E-mail to my www.myspace.com/jackalandhyde account and I'll make sure your Christmas fckn Rocks this year in the stocking department. Try to keep it under $200.. ;)


THANK YOU!


And one more time... Are you SURE, that this is what you think I should order? No changes at all?


Case COOLER MASTER Stacker $159.00
Motherboard ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe $249.00
Video Cards eVGA Geforce 7800GTX $459 x 2 = $918
Power Supply PC Power & Cooling TURBO-COOL 850 $499
CPU AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ $$787.
Ram OCZ 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM Dual Channel Platinum System Memory $250 x 2= $500
HDD OS HITACHI Deskstar 7K80 80GB $56.46 x 2= $112.92
HDD Work HITACHI Deskstar T7K250 250GB $102.50 x 2= $205.00
DVD Rom LITE-ON Black IDE DVD-ROM Drive $22.99
DVD Burner http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16827152047 $37.99

[malinois1]

I am pretty positive this system will more than meet your needs for some time to come. Really it doesent get any more BleedinEdge than this. Most could only dream of building a system like this. Hell I prematurely ejaculated a few times while buiding this on newegg :lol: . In my opinion I could not think of one piece of hardware I would change if I had the money to build a rig like this with the exception of the Ram. The only reason for that though is because I would want to overclock the snot out of this baby. The ram I choose for you is better for a stock rig though ;) due to the tighter timings.

[Scott W]

The ram I choose for you is better for a stock rig though ;) due to the tighter timings.



So OCZ is better than Geil? For stock?

[glorfy]

If the PC is to be used for work, look to a RAID 0+1 or Raid 5 solution. Mirrored for back up to ensure that you don't lose any of your valuable data. Maybe also look into stand alone back up solution. See what BB_One has to say before you hit the order button. I feel he has more experience in this department than any of us.

I do feel that bandwidth is the key for you, so may be tempted to look towards an Opteron solution.

Software evolves, and will take advantage of dual core sooner or later. Maybe even a dual processor board, and add an extra CPU as software and needs allow - it will still play games like a demon if you need it to!

Also the more memory the better.

Just see if BB_One has anything more to say before hitting order!

[malinois1]

2-3-2 timings is about the best you can get in 1G sticks. Basically stock is 200MHZ so tighter(lower) timings will rule. The plus with OCZ is the technical support you get here in their support forums and they have the absolute best warrant and support in the business. In the unfortunate circumstance that you have problems they are quick to help you resolve your problems or RMA the product if necessary.

[flexkill]

Hi Scott, are you using protools? If so PM me;) I am a musician as well, and do alot of recording. So drop me a PM and i can help you out.;) :beer:

[BB_One]

Thxs for the clarification Scott,

First and foremost, given the nature of the task and it's main purpose in life, sorry malinois1 and others, but I certainly cannot support going with a NF4 SLI motherboard. Well not of the kind most enthousiast know today.

Furthermore, as suggested by Glorfy data reliability needs to be considered, hence raid has to come in and play, BUT just as important Data Integrity, and that means forget regular unbuffered memory, you are now into ECC (unbuffered or registered).

Given the task at hand, I have to go AGAINST a chipset solution consisting of nvidia nf4 Ultra or nf4 SLI ( same chipset really) ~ prime reason being that this chipset's Sata controller is a single controller managing 4 Sata ports and in reality will be bogged down under heavy workload and fails to offer a Raid 5 solution.

Edit: Actually my mistake on the Raid5 for nf4 SLi and Ultra chipset, I just checked and it is available. but only a single controller.

The ideal solution would be a chipset base Sata 2 controller, which offers a Raid 5 solution and includes a 128 Mb cache ~ but alas we will not find that - (yet)

This is going to be a lenghty post I can tell, lol!

So, should SCSI be totally eliminated ? Depends, there is benefit when combined with a Raid Controller offering an onboard Cache (128Mb or +), furthermore a SCSI Raid controller will offload the cpu disk access activity. The data stripping and disk acces management is done by the SCSI controller, in the nvidia scenario it is a shared task (to some degree) between the controller and the cpu. By the same nature depending on the architecture of the motherboard, the SCSI performance might be impaired by the pci-X bus bandwith (note: I did not say pci-e). SCSI drives are limited in capacity in the 15000RPM range, are extremelly expensives so is the Raid controller Cards.

So will the SCSI Drives themselves be faster then any Sata Drive you can find today ? Answer: Yes.
Will it be more reliable Data safeguarding wize? Not necessarely if you go with a Raid 5 solution for Sata and for SCSI, ends up being the same safeguard.
Can a Sata II configuration be just as effective and reliable as a SCSI solution, to some degree? Yes, but SCSI still has the upper end if it has an onboard raid cache.
Want a number to gauge how effective? Let me pull a number out of my hat, but pretty close to the real thing: If SCSI with 128 Mb cache is 100% a SATA II solution (for 4 Disks or less) will be an 85% to 90%.
Why 4 disk or less for Sata, simply because of the controller's restiction, which a SCSI controller does not have, most SCSI controller will handle 30 drives (internal or external)! Hence you can see another benefit of SCSI.

So SCSI it is right? Nope, for even if Sata is a bit slower and is restricted (today) to 4 drives ~ one major benefit we have to counter some of the limitation is the hard drive capacities: You will find SATA drives of 500 Gb, you ain't going to find that in SCSI ! So we'll get back to that, later.

So what should it be? It is a matter of compromise and dollars really, and what product is out there to meet our needs given the goals. I will share that purely from a motherboard point of view, there is more choices on an Intel platform then there is on an AMD platform. Does that mean AMD is out? No, but it does mean we have to look at making compromises to some degree.

Ok so we have somewhat of a clue on how we will store our data, but how accurate is that data when it is written or read? That is a function of the memory controller and the memory chips themselves.

Allow me to assume that in such a system, music creation and what not, IF you played a note of music which is a DO, you do want that to be recorded on the hard drives as a DO, and not a FA! Furthermore you do expect to hear a DO and not a FA when you play it back? Regular unbuffered memory will not guarantee you that and can introduce data corruption, hence the need to have Error Checking and Correction memory modules.

In short: When you're put in a position where you have to decide what type of memory to purchase, base your decision on the role the machine in question will be playing, as well as the importance of the data stored therein

If you agree with the memory logic, for Data Integrity, you will now understand why the AMD Athlon 64 or FX series of processors cannot be choosen, they do not support ECC memory modules. Hence we have to look at an Opteron solution. Whether it be Dual Processors, a Dual Core processor or Single processor we will see later. Do note that Opterons socket 940 support Registered (not unbuffered) memory , and furthermore only the 146, 246 and 846 and up support PC 3200 Registered DIMM ~ so you start to get a feeling as to what type of processor we need to look at.

Last but not the least, Graphic. It is nice to want a system that will do it all, work and play - but is SLI a must?

Again, money is the issue and to some degree probably availability of the motherboard, for one option choosen a compromise of some sort will need to be made. SLI fairly new, pricey and the mobo options not entirely there in my view for the ideal workstation platform.

So let me try to bring this to a close, well to some degree. What would I do if I was in your shoes (actually I am , in the process of assembling a similar configuration)

Motherboard selected based on AMD processor and Chipset (Sata II Controller): Mobo must be Nvidia MCP Profesionnal 2200 chipset http://www.nvidia.com/page/nforce_pro.html ~ why?

Short answer:

This chipset can support SLI
This chipset has 2 Sata II compliant Controllers each managing a maximum of 2 Sata ports among other features. http://www.nvidia.com/page/nfpro_workstation_features.html
This chipset offers cross controller Raid 5 support, with the use of NVIDIA MediaShield Storage http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_raid.html more indepth understanding provided here: http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_16449.html

Hard Drives Selected based on the assumption that ONLY 4 Sata II ports can be used effectively, although some mobo will offer 8 ports - 4 supported by Nvidia, 4 by something else, the something else available today such as a Sil 3114 for example (utilizes the pci bus ~ hence limited bandwith), if a mobo with same features but a Sil 3132 controller was available, this assumption would be different since this controller utilizes pci-e lanes. So given the restrciton and what you had identifed as your needs and I would bump it and configurae it in the following manner.

1 x 120 GB ~ Seagate 7200.9 serie Hard drive or Hitachi T7K250 serie ( in non Raid setup)
3 x 250 GB ~ Seagate 7200.9 serie Hard drive or Hitachi T7K250 serie ( in Raid 5 setup on the nVidia Sata II controller with Media Shield enable) note that this will give you only 500GB capacity not 750 GB.

Note: If more capacity is required. plan ahead buy bigger drives or if the mobo offers 8 Sata ports, use the SIL controller for the Windows non raid drive and shift one more Raid 5 drive under the nvidia controllers.

Graphic Card 1x nVidia 7800 GTX - 256 Mb ( I am assuming we are putting SLI aside for the time being, otherwize we will need to review the Motherboard suggested below)

MotherBoard 1 x ASUS K8N-DL http://usa.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=671&l1=3&l2=17&l3=173

Memory 4 x 1 GB OCZ OCZ4001024SSER http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr_pc_3200_server_series (triple check compatibility)

CPU Last but not the least, and from the mobo choice you can see we are in a 2 cpu scenario, I will not jump into dual core dual cpu scenario and remain somewhat price concensious here and would suggest 2 x AMD Opteron 248 , 2.2 GHz.

Power Supply OCZ PowerStream Power Supply (SLI Ready) http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/power_management/ocz_powerstream_power_supply-sli_ready_

So where does it take us in terms of price today:

ASUS K8N-DL ~ 1 x $240.00 http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=7879844&search=ASUS+K8N-DL
1 x 120 GB Seagate 7200.9 ~ $77.00 http://www.pricegrabber.com/search.php?form_keyword=7200.9&topcat_id=1
3 x 250 GB Seagate 7200.9 ~ $140.00 = $420.00 (estimated they are not out yet I believe)
1 x GTX 7800 Nvidia ~ $475.00 http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php?page_id=5&form_keyword=7800+GTX&rd=1
4 x 1 OCZ Gig memory ~ $140.00 = $560.00 http://castle.pricewatch.com/s/search.asp?s=OCZ4001024SSER
2 x AMD Opteron 248 ~ $330.00= $660.00 http://castle.pricewatch.com/s/search.asp?s=opteron+248
1x OCZ Power Stream ~ $200.00 http://castle.pricewatch.com/s/search.asp?s=OCZ600ADJSLI

Total: $ 2632.00 add $150.00 for a CM Stacker ( good case I have one) ~

Grand Total : $ 2782.00 US Dollars

As you can see, shying away from SCSI allows us larger disk storage capacity at a drastically reduce price. Now you got money left over to either grab Higher rated processors ( 250 and upwards) and / or larger disk drives.

Edit: Forgot to add, you could also consider adding an extra 2 gig of memory from the money u saved as this mobo can support up to 6 memory modules.

On that note allow me to open a parenthesis, we have covered Data Integrity and Reliability, one more thing to addressed is Data security, you should strongly consider buying a drive or a couple of drives the sum of which should be equal or larger then your disk raid 5 array in the example above 500 Gb. Insert the or these drives in another pc and use those to do a back up of your array on a constant basis over a lan, this would add something like $500 dollars to your configuartiuon for peace of mind and security.

Well I said it was going to be lenghty I keeped my promisse, hope it helps.:deviltail

Regards.

[BB_One]

Just for the fun of it, I looked for an SLi solution respecting what I shared above, can be done for about $1000.00 more, give or take a few.
But loose 4 Sata ports no SIL 3114, as epxected all a question compromise. Could add a Sata II controller later on in a pci-e or pci-x configuration.

[Scott W]

Thxs for the clarification Scott,

First and foremost, given the nature of the task and it's main purpose in life, sorry malinois1 and others, but I certainly cannot support going with a NF4 SLI motherboard. Well not of the kind most enthousiast know today.

Furthermore, as suggested by Glorfy data reliability needs to be considered, hence raid has to come in and play, BUT just as important Data Integrity, and that means forget regular unbuffered memory, you are now into ECC (unbuffered or registered).

Given the task at hand, I have to go AGAINST a chipset solution consisting of nvidia nf4 Ultra or nf4 SLI ( same chipset really) ~ prime reason being that this chipset's Sata controller is a single controller managing 4 Sata ports and in reality will be bogged down under heavy workload and fails to offer a Raid 5 solution.

Edit: Actually my mistake on the Raid5 for nf4 SLi and Ultra chipset, I just checked and it is available. but only a single controller.

The ideal solution would be a chipset base Sata 2 controller, which offers a Raid 5 solution and includes a 128 Mb cache ~ but alas we will not find that - (yet)

This is going to be a lenghty post I can tell, lol!

So, should SCSI be totally eliminated ? Depends, there is benefit when combined with a Raid Controller offering an onboard Cache (128Mb or +), furthermore a SCSI Raid controller will offload the cpu disk access activity. The data stripping and disk acces management is done by the SCSI controller, in the nvidia scenario it is a shared task (to some degree) between the controller and the cpu. By the same nature depending on the architecture of the motherboard, the SCSI performance might be impaired by the pci-X bus bandwith (note: I did not say pci-e). SCSI drives are limited in capacity in the 15000RPM range, are extremelly expensives so is the Raid controller Cards.

So will the SCSI Drives themselves be faster then any Sata Drive you can find today ? Answer: Yes.
Will it be more reliable Data safeguarding wize? Not necessarely if you go with a Raid 5 solution for Sata and for SCSI, ends up being the same safeguard.
Can a Sata II configuration be just as effective and reliable as a SCSI solution, to some degree? Yes, but SCSI still has the upper end if it has an onboard raid cache.
Want a number to gauge how effective? Let me pull a number out of my hat, but pretty close to the real thing: If SCSI with 128 Mb cache is 100% a SATA II solution (for 4 Disks or less) will be an 85% to 90%.
Why 4 disk or less for Sata, simply because of the controller's restiction, which a SCSI controller does not have, most SCSI controller will handle 30 drives (internal or external)! Hence you can see another benefit of SCSI.

So SCSI it is right? Nope, for even if Sata is a bit slower and is restricted (today) to 4 drives ~ one major benefit we have to counter some of the limitation is the hard drive capacities: You will find SATA drives of 500 Gb, you ain't going to find that in SCSI ! So we'll get back to that, later.

So what should it be? It is a matter of compromise and dollars really, and what product is out there to meet our needs given the goals. I will share that purely from a motherboard point of view, there is more choices on an Intel platform then there is on an AMD platform. Does that mean AMD is out? No, but it does mean we have to look at making compromises to some degree.

Ok so we have somewhat of a clue on how we will store our data, but how accurate is that data when it is written or read? That is a function of the memory controller and the memory chips themselves.

Allow me to assume that in such a system, music creation and what not, IF you played a note of music which is a DO, you do want that to be recorded on the hard drives as a DO, and not a FA! Furthermore you do expect to hear a DO and not a FA when you play it back? Regular unbuffered memory will not guarantee you that and can introduce data corruption, hence the need to have Error Checking and Correction memory modules.

In short: When you're put in a position where you have to decide what type of memory to purchase, base your decision on the role the machine in question will be playing, as well as the importance of the data stored therein

If you agree with the memory logic, for Data Integrity, you will now understand why the AMD Athlon 64 or FX series of processors cannot be choosen, they do not support ECC memory modules. Hence we have to look at an Opteron solution. Whether it be Dual Processors, a Dual Core processor or Single processor we will see later. Do note that Opterons socket 940 support Registered (not unbuffered) memory , and furthermore only the 146, 246 and 846 and up support PC 3200 Registered DIMM ~ so you start to get a feeling as to what type of processor we need to look at.

Last but not the least, Graphic. It is nice to want a system that will do it all, work and play - but is SLI a must?

Again, money is the issue and to some degree probably availability of the motherboard, for one option choosen a compromise of some sort will need to be made. SLI fairly new, pricey and the mobo options not entirely there in my view for the ideal workstation platform.

So let me try to bring this to a close, well to some degree. What would I do if I was in your shoes (actually I am , in the process of assembling a similar configuration)

Motherboard selected based on AMD processor and Chipset (Sata II Controller): Mobo must be Nvidia MCP Profesionnal 2200 chipset http://www.nvidia.com/page/nforce_pro.html ~ why?

Short answer:

This chipset can support SLI
This chipset has 2 Sata II compliant Controllers each managing a maximum of 2 Sata ports among other features. http://www.nvidia.com/page/nfpro_workstation_features.html
This chipset offers cross controller Raid 5 support, with the use of NVIDIA MediaShield Storage http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_raid.html more indepth understanding provided here: http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_16449.html

Hard Drives Selected based on the assumption that ONLY 4 Sata II ports can be used effectively, although some mobo will offer 8 ports - 4 supported by Nvidia, 4 by something else, the something else available today such as a Sil 3114 for example (utilizes the pci bus ~ hence limited bandwith), if a mobo with same features but a Sil 3132 controller was available, this assumption would be different since this controller utilizes pci-e lanes. So given the restrciton and what you had identifed as your needs and I would bump it and configurae it in the following manner.

1 x 120 GB ~ Seagate 7200.9 serie Hard drive or Hitachi T7K250 serie ( in non Raid setup)
3 x 250 GB ~ Seagate 7200.9 serie Hard drive or Hitachi T7K250 serie ( in Raid 5 setup on the nVidia Sata II controller with Media Shield enable) note that this will give you only 500GB capacity not 750 GB.

Note: If more capacity is required. plan ahead buy bigger drives or if the mobo offers 8 Sata ports, use the SIL controller for the Windows non raid drive and shift one more Raid 5 drive under the nvidia controllers.

Graphic Card 1x nVidia 7800 GTX - 256 Mb ( I am assuming we are putting SLI aside for the time being, otherwize we will need to review the Motherboard suggested below)

MotherBoard 1 x ASUS K8N-DL http://usa.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=671&l1=3&l2=17&l3=173

Memory 4 x 1 GB OCZ OCZ4001024SSER http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr_pc_3200_server_series (triple check compatibility)

CPU Last but not the least, and from the mobo choice you can see we are in a 2 cpu scenario, I will not jump into dual core dual cpu scenario and remain somewhat price concensious here and would suggest 2 x AMD Opteron 248 , 2.2 GHz.

Power Supply OCZ PowerStream Power Supply (SLI Ready) http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/power_management/ocz_powerstream_power_supply-sli_ready_

So where does it take us in terms of price today:

ASUS K8N-DL ~ 1 x $240.00 http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=7879844&search=ASUS+K8N-DL
1 x 120 GB Seagate 7200.9 ~ $77.00 http://www.pricegrabber.com/search.php?form_keyword=7200.9&topcat_id=1
3 x 250 GB Seagate 7200.9 ~ $140.00 = $420.00 (estimated they are not out yet I believe)
1 x GTX 7800 Nvidia ~ $475.00 http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_attrib.php?page_id=5&form_keyword=7800+GTX&rd=1
4 x 1 OCZ Gig memory ~ $140.00 = $560.00 http://castle.pricewatch.com/s/search.asp?s=OCZ4001024SSER
2 x AMD Opteron 248 ~ $330.00= $660.00 http://castle.pricewatch.com/s/search.asp?s=opteron+248
1x OCZ Power Stream ~ $200.00 http://castle.pricewatch.com/s/search.asp?s=OCZ600ADJSLI

Total: $ 2632.00 add $150.00 for a CM Stacker ( good case I have one) ~

Grand Total : $ 2782.00 US Dollars

As you can see, shying away from SCSI allows us larger disk storage capacity at a drastically reduce price. Now you got money left over to either grab Higher rated processors ( 250 and upwards) and / or larger disk drives.

Edit: Forgot to add, you could also consider adding an extra 2 gig of memory from the money u saved as this mobo can support up to 6 memory modules.

On that note allow me to open a parenthesis, we have covered Data Integrity and Reliability, one more thing to addressed is Data security, you should strongly consider buying a drive or a couple of drives the sum of which should be equal or larger then your disk raid 5 array in the example above 500 Gb. Insert the or these drives in another pc and use those to do a back up of your array on a constant basis over a lan, this would add something like $500 dollars to your configuartiuon for peace of mind and security.

Well I said it was going to be lenghty I keeped my promisse, hope it helps.:deviltail

Regards.


Thanks. Holy read! I'm going to read this carefully after dinner. :thumb:

[Snafu]

If the main goal is to record and edit music then I am wondering why an AMD based machine and not an Intel based system? Maybe the dual core AMDs are now offering a better solution?

Cheers

[malinois1]

Yep BB put a lot of info out there to chew on :yup: . I have a friend who has a semi-proffesional studio. He has built with aucustic sound dampening. He has some dacs and other recording hardware and does this all with some fairly cheap computers. I mean like 2 generations ago machines. So I am not so sure you need a server type machine like BB is suggesting. I guess it all comes down to how important the data on the HDD is to you. In reality though it doesn't take the latest and greatest to record, and edit music and then burn to a CD. It is in my opinion that maybe we got a little carried away :o .

Do you record proffesionally for many people? Or is this just for your band?

[Missile Maker]

Actually, I'd recommend you up the two storage drives to T7K500s ( 500GB is better suited if your doing music and video, cause you'll probably want to keep multiple takes/mixes). Since its music/art, I'd recommend using RAID 1 (mirroring) on the storage drives so you have a backup, so 2 x 500GBs RAID 1 = 500GBs total. Stick with with RAID 0 (Stripped) for speed on the two 80 Gb drives (160GBs total).
Cheers,
MM

[RyderOCZ]

Actually, I'd recommend you up the two storage drives to T7K500s ( 500GB is better suited if your doing music and video, cause you'll probably want to keep multiple takes/mixes). Since its music/art, I'd recommend using RAID 1 (mirroring) on the storage drives so you have a backup, so 2 x 500GBs RAID 1 = 500GBs total. Stick with with RAID 0 (Stripped) for speed on the two 80 Gb drives (160GBs total).
Cheers,
MMBB actually spec'd 3 250GB drives in Raid 5 which will give you 500GB of space with full redundancy should 1 fail also....this is even more secure than Raid 1 for data storage.

[BB_One]

If the main goal is to record and edit music then I am wondering why an AMD based machine and not an Intel based system? Maybe the dual core AMDs are now offering a better solution?

Cheers


I'm pretty sure we can find a very solid configuration based on Intel, and actually as I stated; more then likely have a better offer in terms of motherboard option.

However, in my response I have taken into account the user's input, mainly 2 very specific ones.

1- AMD preference was identified.
2- Storage size / type / hence I assume reliability and speed.

That being said, AMD must be making some serious ground if you consider that Professional recording studio and film makers (Lucas among others) utilize AMD.

Speaking off, I just looked at this a minute ago. :mischeif: :D :o :mischeif:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ComputingSolutions/0,,30_288_7146,00.html?redir=CPDM01

Lastly and you know me Ron, my real name is AMDGeek! :deviltail

[BB_One]

Yep BB put a lot of info out there to chew on :yup: . I have a friend who has a semi-proffesional studio. He has built with aucustic sound dampening. He has some dacs and other recording hardware and does this all with some fairly cheap computers. I mean like 2 generations ago machines. So I am not so sure you need a server type machine like BB is suggesting. I guess it all comes down to how important the data on the HDD is to you. In reality though it doesn't take the latest and greatest to record, and edit music and then burn to a CD. It is in my opinion that maybe we got a little carried away :o .

Do you record proffesionally for many people? Or is this just for your band?


There is much more to it then just Hard drive on this workstation solution malinois1, and as I shared this is an entry level system.

Should Scott elect to go this route, I would encourage going for higher Opteron and probably larger drives right off the bat after I saw the following thread.

Overkill ? Well not really, as to the usage this will certainly put things in perspective

http://www.bleedinedge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15682

[Snafu]

Thought I would toss it in to the mix you AMDGeek :lol:

Sounds like AMD is expanding thier market beyond gaming - not that they aren't good for anything other than games but Intel had held the title for encoding, etc. It's good to see AMD stepping up into this area. More competition the better for us all :rock:

[BB_One]

By the way Scott,

I will not ask for money or gift for helping out, only a weekend setup with her, and let her know I promise she can torture me till her heart's content all weekend long ! :deviltail :fire: :deviltail

http://myspace-331.vo.llnwd.net/00231/13/39/231699331_m.jpg

Genitorturers (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=5173860&Mytoken=31919F2B-9F8C-4C95-96C7FA57A2207941184760296)

[BB_One]

Thought I would toss it in to the mix you AMDGeek :lol:

Sounds like AMD is expanding thier market beyond gaming - not that they aren't good for anything other than games but Intel had held the title for encoding, etc. It's good to see AMD stepping up into this area. More competition the better for us all :rock:

Actually believe it or not, the preferred platform for the Audio Recording enthousiast, not the PROs.

Is Apple G5 ..hehehe

[malinois1]

:lol: @ BB....Ill take 2 :o :help:

[malinois1]

There is much more to it then just Hard drive on this workstation solution malinois1, and as I shared this is an entry level system.

Should Scott elect to go this route, I would encourage going for higher Opteron and probably larger drives right off the bat after I saw the following thread.

Overkill ? Well not really, as to the usage this will certainly put things in perspective

http://www.bleedinedge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15682

Yep that does put it into perspective. I must have missed that one :o . I do though have to ask what he has been using up until now to do this. Also in the thread you linked me to in his opening statement he said he is not harware savy. Would you recommend someone with not a whole lot of building experience to build a system like you are talking about....or to buy one pre-built ?

Keep in mind I am not knocking your recommendations...just wondering if it would be wise to build a system like that your self......when say like someone even such as myself has no knowledge of that kind of a system.

[RotorHead]

BB,....my god man, give Scott some time to soak it all in before you hammer him with a post like that. :yikes: :p We loves ya BB

Great info tho! :thumb:

Scott, as BB alluded to, the Intel platform may give you some options (or at least a larger group to pick from) that an AMD platform might not have to offer. As far as that goes, I think at this time AMD has the performance edge. So unless there is a special feature that you must have then I would stick with the AMD platform.

Also, on the data security side, you may want to look into some good backup and recovery software......I would recommend Acronis True Image. It has a very easy to use interface and some powerful features. Check it out if you get some time.

http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage/

On the data integrity side, I can vouch for the benefits of having Registered ECC memory. I have no actual data to back this up other then my personal experience with running two systems with this type of memory installed. Having said that, the two systems have been rock stable with no data corruption that I know of.

[BB_One]

Malinois1:

Building this system is no harder then building an SLi system really, Sata simplifies it alot. SCSI, now that can be fun. However, it does take a little patience and some knowledge or someone to go to for help if stuck (this is where BE comes in I guess).
There will be challenges and heck we have not talked about cooling and a few other things, among others I would go Windows XP 64 , and etc etc.

But in depth details was not my intent, just a high level view, ok so I got carried away and the high level view was flying low...sue me.. :hide: :deviltail

RotorHead:

If you read the initial thread, I would not hammer that quickly but last night it was the BUY button time, so kind of had to spill my guts rather quickly..:mischeif:

[RotorHead]

I'm with ya on that one BB....no snap decisions with that type of hardware. :D

[Scott W]

By the way Scott,

I will not ask for money or gift for helping out, only a weekend setup with her, and let her know I promise she can torture me till her heart's content all weekend long ! :deviltail :fire: :deviltail

http://myspace-331.vo.llnwd.net/00231/13/39/231699331_m.jpg

Genitorturers (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=5173860&Mytoken=31919F2B-9F8C-4C95-96C7FA57A2207941184760296)


I'll try. :D



But first, you'll have to get past her husband (The lead singer/Bassist of Death Metal Legends 'Morbid Angel')


http://genitorturers.com/pages/images/evil_dave.jpg



You might remember him from 'Head Bangers ball' '120 Minutes' back in the 90's and most notably the song/MTV video 'God of Emptiness' which Beavis and Butthead used to make fun of constantly singing the words "Boooowww to me worship meeee, bow to me gracefully" :lol: (YEa YEa, bow to me butthead) lol


Funny thing is, David and I co-own the studio I'm in. He's a MAC guy though and we have seperate rooms. We don't agree on anything studio wise so I'll see what I can do for you with your request. :D

Not so funny fact is that he was 'Dimebag Darrell's' best friend from Pantera who got murdered on stage last December by that psychotic fck. :irk:

[Scott W]

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1494653/12092004/damageplan.jhtml?headlines=true

[BB_One]

Ummm....I could probably deal with the hubby, but end up in more torture then I bargained for in the end.

Ok where's the rain check counter....

Geezz and here I was hoping that my driver would get her drive going.:deviltail

[Scott W]

I do though have to ask what he has been using up until now to do this.


P4 3.0 box with the usual suspects riding shotgun in it.

[Scott W]

And after re-reading the entire thread, I'm more confused than EVER about RAID settings... ) 0, 5, 1 ..... ? WTF? Help! I don't need back up garbage. I throw to DVD sets and get rid of/archive them once finished. I just need 2 - 37 GB hard drives screaming for each song 1 at a time. Fast as fck. Like when the Emporer played possum in Episode III and then got up and worked Mace Windu screaming "UNSTOPPABLE NEVER ENDING POWER!" With purple lightning bolts up maces ass flying out the window. <How do you get this kind of RAID service? lol

[BB_One]

Simple Raid term ,

Raid 0 will split data evenly on 2 drives ( for example 2 - 80 gig drives)
will give you 1 drive of 160 Gig. Benefit is that an mp3 file of say 3 Meg, is written 50 /50 to each drive simulataneously, hence much faster then if it was written to only one drive.

Raid 1 does NOT split data to the 2 drives, it actually writes the same mp3 file to both drives, hence you now have a single 80 Gig drive ( but is actually 2 drive having the same info on it - redundancy) So if one goes bananas the other one is there and you loose nothing sort off in terms of file.

Raid 5 Is the mixture of the 2 above, offering split writing and redundancy, + some other stuff that I will not bore you with. Issue here is that you need a minimum of 3 drives to be able to do Raid 5. If one of the drives fails, just take it out put another in and bingo you are off to the races.

If data back up is not a concern and you want speed only, then Raid 0 is the answer.

[flexkill]

This is all great info guys....but as earlier stated. If you are looking for a serious PC for audio production......hands down a mac G5. All of the serious software such as protools and such are designed specificly(SP) in mind for the macs.:yup: A dual core AMD is what i use for my small studio, and it works very well. BUT....if i really was talking of spending the cheese you are....i would get a mac. Plus all of your major software, again , such as ProTools(is what i use BTW)....is designed to run all of your kick a$$ consoles perfectly. no fuss no muss.....just plug it all up and it's ready to roll and fully animated as well.;)

[Scott W]

This is all great info guys....but as earlier stated. If you are looking for a serious PC for audio production......hands down a mac G5. All of the serious software such as protools and such are designed specificly(SP) in mind for the macs.:yup: A dual core AMD is what i use for my small studio, and it works very well. BUT....if i really was talking of spending the cheese you are....i would get a mac. )



No, MAC blows chunks HARD and has, since about 02' for music. And although I am forced to use ****/Tools once in a while it really doesnt matter what box is used today. I use Ableton Live, a prog made originally for MAC. Here is an ancient Benchmark power test using a slappy ass MAC running Ableton Live.


http://www.markholloway.com/Live5Chart.jpg


SOURCE (http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24715)




I'll stick with AMD or Intel either way. Thanks.

[flexkill]

:yikes: Hmmmm i will hjave to check in to that:scratch:

[Snafu]

IMO I would go with a Raid 5 set-up. It has the speed of Raid 0 but is able to create a back-up like Raid 1. If you record directly to the drives without the back-up (i.e., don't record to tape then transfer to the hard drive) the worse thing that could happen is that you loose a drive part way through recording and there is no way to recover the track :(

You can always delete them off the drives after they are put on DVD. If you don't need the space you could always opt to use smaller drives. Not sure if they are making small drives for the new SATA spec though - BB will know :lol:

A buddy of mine is a pro photographer and he uses masses of storage for his shoots. He later sorts through his pics and decides what to keep. Similarly extra storage would let you record more in a session then decide what to burn to DVD later.

BTW great humour in this thread. I'll let BB and his dog "Tox" distract the hubby while I chat up the wife :lol:

[BB_One]

Cost of IDE or Sata drive today compare to capacity, makes it rather a useless exercise to buy small drives.

In the 100 GB and below category you will pay around $1.00 per gig of storage. In the 160.00 GB upwards you will pay 0.50&#162; per Gig.

exception being: Raptors and the newer 500 Gig drives.

[Snafu]

True. I think the most cost efficient ($ per GB) SATA drives out there are the 200-250GB range. I was not sure about the second generation SATA drives.

I wonder when some second gen SATA Raptors are coming out? Hear any hews on these?

[BB_One]

I wonder when some second gen SATA Raptors are coming out? Hear any hews on these?

Actually not heard anything official, but if I go with history on ebay....when Sata I drives started showing up by the dozen and new for cheap...it signalled that distributors had been forwarned about the new stuff and gave them a serious incentives to dump the Sata I drives on ebay...

In the last 2 to 3 weeks....you can see that starting to happen with Raptors...even some Dell OEM raptors which I had never heard of and are apparently of full 80 Gig storage capacity as oppose to 74......HP Raptors are also showing up....so....something is cooking I would think.

[Snafu]

Interesting but it makes sense. I wonder what they are planning to come out with. Something blazing fast :chit:

[RyderOCZ]

Hmmmmmm......You guys seem to be more interested in chatting than keeping Scott's thread on topic !!!! :suspect:










:wave: :hide: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Snafu]

Just keeping the thread active while Scott absorbs the book that BB wrote and posts back :lol:

[BB_One]

:lol: :lol: :na: :D :na:

[flexkill]

well i just checked out the Ableton software, and while yes it is nice for beats and such. I can't see it taking place of ProTools in the grand scheme of things.:beer: